PM breaking the law creates a constitutional crisis

Oh dear UG what on earth would these despicable Tory cheats and liars have to do to lose your support???

Nope, Urmstongran, I’m not Scottish and that wasn’t the point I was making at all. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Please just read grannyactivist’s post and absorb the points she’s making, which are not written from a left wing perspective, but from the perspective of adherence to standards in public life.

grannyactivist

I know that people think ‘Partygate’ is meaningless in light of ‘weightier’ matters, but do those people then believe that standards in public life don’t matter? (This is a serious question, I’m not trying to bait anyone.)

The seven Nolan Principles underpin what, as a country, we should be able to trust our government to adhere to. If you like, it is the baseline for the expected behaviour of public officials. Are Boris Johnson’s supporters saying that the rules shouldn’t apply to him, or that they should no longer be adhered to by anyone in public service?

Selflessness – Holders of public office should act solely in terms of the public interest.

Integrity – Holders of public office must avoid placing themselves under any obligation to people or organisations that might try inappropriately to influence them in their work. They should not act or take decisions to gain financial or other material benefits for themselves, their family, or their friends. They must declare and resolve any interests and relationships.

Objectivity – Holders of public office must act and take decisions impartially, fairly and on merit, using the best evidence and without discrimination or bias.

Accountability – Holders of public office are accountable to the public for their decisions and actions and must submit themselves to the scrutiny necessary to ensure this.

Openness – Holders of public office should act and take decisions in an open and transparent manner. Information should not be withheld from the public unless there are clear and lawful reasons for so doing.

Honesty – Holders of public office should be truthful

Leadership - Holders of public office should exhibit these principles in their own behaviour and treat others with respect. They should actively promote and robustly support the principles and challenge poor behaviour wherever it occurs.

I’m quoting my own post as I’m still hoping for an answer so I don’t want it to get overlooked.

Why bring Nicola Sturgeon into it?

Ah, silly me! It's the "throw a dead cat on the table" routine to distract us from the person this thread is about - namely BoJo.

IMHO he has always been unfit for public office and is merely following the habits of a lifetime from schooldays onwards, when his headmaster at Eton wrote that he (BoJo) thinks the rules don't apply to him.

As a result, it is not surprising to read reports that senior Tories are starting to worry about losing Tory votes in the upcoming local elections. This will be because previously loyal Tory voters hate the direction their party is going in and feel too ashamed to vote for it so they will abstain.

Allsorts

Concentrate on the bigger picture, he didn’t plan it, they all worked together, it about time people got a grip. This has been blown up out of all proportion as a means of getting rid of him. That’s the reality.

How many times does it have to be said -. it's not just about his Birthday party, it's also about him lying to Parliament on several occasions. The man is a disgrace and the reality is that the situation has not been blown up out of all proportion, the situation is serious and should be treated as such.

Allsorts
" ... he didn’t plan it, ... "

That much I can believe - I doubt he could organise a piss up in a brewery, as the saying goes!

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

It’s civil law, not criminal law. That’s an important distinction.

maddyone

It’s civil law, not criminal law. That’s an important distinction.

I think a FPN is actually criminal law, but at the very bottom of the scale.

growstuff

maddyone

It’s civil law, not criminal law. That’s an important distinction.

I think a FPN is actually criminal law, but at the very bottom of the scale.

Paying the fine is an admission of guilt and thus an admission that one has broken the criminal law.

Breaking it once, unknowingly, is just about forgivable. Breaking it more than once, as Johnson did, is demonstrating a blatant disregard of the law. It is particularly serious when the person who wrote the law actually breaks it continually. It demonstrates an utter disregard for the law and insults everyone who obeyed the law to protect the whole of society. It breaches both the Nolan Principles and the Ministerial Code and renders that person unfit for high office.

No-one in the entire land, neither the Queen, nor the PM is above the law. That is what the Rule of Law is about. It's part of what holds society together.

GillT57

Sometimes Urm, I think you are just winding some of us up for entertainment,nobody can have such a tin ear. Have you read what grannyactivist has posted, twice?

I have suspected that for a long time, Gill57.There is a name for people who do that on forums...

I’m not saying that paying the fine isn’t an admission of guilt, as it is. I think it unlikely that anyone in number 10 would dispute the fine. I was drawing the distinction between civil and criminal law. They are different. Growstuff thinks it maybe criminal law but I thought I’d seen on a news programme that the fines are civil law. I don’t think anyone can actually go to prison for a civil offence. I put my hands up though because I’m not sure.

The judge can send you to prison if you don't pay the fine for a civil offence. The judge will decide how long you stay in prison depending on how much of the fine is unpaid.

A fixed penalty notice is for a summary offence - a criminal offence which is normally tried in a magistrates' court. If Johnson were to refuse to pay his fine within 28 days, he could can be charged with breaching coronavirus regulations by the Crown Prosecution Service and summoned to court. There, he could mount a defence during criminal prosecution. With his compulsion for lying he would be on very thin ice which is why he will pay his fine (or fines as many are predicting).

Note that the police have discretion not to offer a fixed penalty notice where there has been repeated offending and to recommend prosecution in court so he is on thin ice anyway.

Just done a bit of quick research and it appears that the FPN, so long as it is paid, does not result in a criminal conviction. It only becomes criminal if the FPN is not paid. Interesting isn’t it. I didn’t know that.

Casdon

The judge can send you to prison if you don't pay the fine for a civil offence. The judge will decide how long you stay in prison depending on how much of the fine is unpaid.

Yes, that’s right.

Allsorts

Concentrate on the bigger picture, he didn’t plan it, they all worked together, it about time people got a grip. This has been blown up out of all proportion as a means of getting rid of him. That’s the reality.

If it were his only lie, you may have a modicum of a point.

However, our PM, is an inveterate liar. This is not a one off. He lied to the Queen about why parliament was being prorogued FGS.

maddyone

Just done a bit of quick research and it appears that the FPN, so long as it is paid, does not result in a criminal conviction. It only becomes criminal if the FPN is not paid. Interesting isn’t it. I didn’t know that.

That's why he paid up and didn't contest it. His case wouldn't have stood up to legal scrutiny.

I do not care one jot about the political colour of the PM - a PM of any party who has behaved as he has should resign.

A Labour PM who sought to undermine democracy should resign.
A Lib Dem PM who sought to undermine democracy should resign.

We are talking basic principles of democracy here, not party politics.

Thanks for explaining so clearly OakDryad.

Ms Sturgeon had been outside with the campaigners and momentarily forgot her mask ,you can see online that she put it on within a minute or so.Thats a lot different to parties at Downing st.Oh and the person who reported her is a well know Tory Activist from the North east of SCOTLAND so hardly someone wthout an ae to grind.The woman is a regular on BBC's Question time always moaning about SNP and Nicola Sturgeon .Reporting a matter of a minute without a mask to Police Scotland SHE should be fined for wasting police time

maddyone

Just done a bit of quick research and it appears that the FPN, so long as it is paid, does not result in a criminal conviction. It only becomes criminal if the FPN is not paid. Interesting isn’t it. I didn’t know that.

It still comes under criminal law, even if it's not recorded on a person's record.

Absolutely right Luckygirl13.

paddyann54

Ms Sturgeon had been outside with the campaigners and momentarily forgot her mask ,you can see online that she put it on within a minute or so.Thats a lot different to parties at Downing st.Oh and the person who reported her is a well know Tory Activist from the North east of SCOTLAND so hardly someone wthout an ae to grind.The woman is a regular on BBC's Question time always moaning about SNP and Nicola Sturgeon .Reporting a matter of a minute without a mask to Police Scotland SHE should be fined for wasting police time

I'm not a fan of Sturgeon, but a spokesperson for the SNP at least admitted it and gave an explanation, rather than denying it and repeatedly lying.

He's got away with so many lies that I expect he thought a few more wouldn't matter. People have just shrugged their shoulders because they didn't care that much about the effects of the lies. For example, if it "got Brexit done" or put "woke" people in their place, people didn't care about the means. Cummings got away with his trip(s), which Johnson supported. People have just said "oh that's Boris for you - bad lad - but he gets things done and he's quite amusing". I think he's badly miscalculated. It's quite stark when parties are put next to stories of people not going to funerals or seeing their family, etc during lockdown. Combine that with the stories about Sunak's wife when people are struggling to pay bills. The Rwanda story is the latest in a long line to rally the pro-Brexit troops in a culture war, hoping that people will forget about the rest.