PM breaking the law creates a constitutional crisis

Concentrate on the bigger picture, he didn’t plan it, they all worked together, it about time people got a grip. This has been blown up out of all proportion as a means of getting rid of him. That’s the reality.

Thank you Allsorts for your sensible post.
There is so much pettiness and small-minded nonsense going on at the moment.

Looks like some of us do want to be ruled by a Government that makes rules for the electorate but thinks it does not have to stick to the rules themselves. I don't know why that liar is still Prime Minister except that it must be that some people don't think truth and integrity are important qualities in our elected representatives.

Allsorts

Concentrate on the bigger picture, he didn’t plan it, they all worked together, it about time people got a grip. This has been blown up out of all proportion as a means of getting rid of him. That’s the reality.

That’s not the reality though Allsorts, is it? That’s what those voters who want to keep Boris in the PM job want to believe, but it’s not the reality. The reality is that he has been caught breaking the law.

I know that people think ‘Partygate’ is meaningless in light of ‘weightier’ matters, but do those people then believe that standards in public life don’t matter? (This is a serious question, I’m not trying to bait anyone.)

The seven Nolan Principles underpin what, as a country, we should be able to trust our government to adhere to. If you like, it is the baseline for the expected behaviour of public officials. Are Boris Johnson’s supporters saying that the rules shouldn’t apply to him, or that they should no longer be adhered to by anyone in public service?

Selflessness – Holders of public office should act solely in terms of the public interest.

Integrity – Holders of public office must avoid placing themselves under any obligation to people or organisations that might try inappropriately to influence them in their work. They should not act or take decisions to gain financial or other material benefits for themselves, their family, or their friends. They must declare and resolve any interests and relationships.

Objectivity – Holders of public office must act and take decisions impartially, fairly and on merit, using the best evidence and without discrimination or bias.

Accountability – Holders of public office are accountable to the public for their decisions and actions and must submit themselves to the scrutiny necessary to ensure this.

Openness – Holders of public office should act and take decisions in an open and transparent manner. Information should not be withheld from the public unless there are clear and lawful reasons for so doing.

Honesty – Holders of public office should be truthful

Leadership - Holders of public office should exhibit these principles in their own behaviour and treat others with respect. They should actively promote and robustly support the principles and challenge poor behaviour wherever it occurs.

My DH read recently that amongst democratic countries about 40% of the population aren't interested in democracy they just want a strong leader who will tell them what to do. Turkey, Hungary and Russia are all examples of this.

An interesting post RamblingRose and I cannot imagine anyone not taking it seriously.

GrannyActivist Thank you too for an excellent post.

Thanks to those who have replied so far.

It is astonishing that lawlessness is acceptable to some people and that they don't care if it goes unpunished.

I bet that if Allsorts and wicklowwinnie were harmed by a lawless act - eg a speeding driver who hit them or a burglar who stole or damaged their property and the perpetrators were allowed to get away with it they wouldn't be too happy.

The reality is - however inconvenient - that ignorance of the law is no excuse for wrongdoing. Even the Queen, who was offered some sort of dispensation not to sit on her own at her husband's memorial service, knew she had to obey the rules and set an example - declined the opportunity to have the rules set aside for her.

The magnitude of the crime is unimportant because ignorance of the law is no excuse. BoJo was quick to pay the fine but we know he will never resign unless forced to. What a despicable creature he is.

Do you get a criminal record from a fixed penalty notice?
Accepting an FPN is not the same as receiving a criminal conviction, which would then appear as part of a person’s criminal record.

Fixed penalty notices issued under coronavirus legislation are not be recorded on the Police National Computer although local records may be held by the relevant police force.(copied and shared)

A FPN is not a criminal conviction.

Excellent post from grannyactivist

Thank you for explaining the issue so clearly.

Maudi

Do you get a criminal record from a fixed penalty notice?
Accepting an FPN is not the same as receiving a criminal conviction, which would then appear as part of a person’s criminal record.

Fixed penalty notices issued under coronavirus legislation are not be recorded on the Police National Computer although local records may be held by the relevant police force.(copied and shared)

A FPN is not a criminal conviction.

Pointless comment when the discussion is about a contravention of constitutional law, but sadly predictable from some members who are wilfully avoiding facts when it doesn't support their own narrative

Dinahmo

My DH read recently that amongst democratic countries about 40% of the population aren't interested in democracy they just want a strong leader who will tell them what to do. Turkey, Hungary and Russia are all examples of this.

An interesting post RamblingRose and I cannot imagine anyone not taking it seriously.

That means that they don’t want a democracy but a dictatorship. Well, I don’t!

What is predictable is a certain poster popping up after I have posted on every thread I'm on, if I didn't know better I would think you are fan.

Allsorts

Concentrate on the bigger picture, he didn’t plan it, they all worked together, it about time people got a grip. This has been blown up out of all proportion as a means of getting rid of him. That’s the reality.

The parties are the tip of an iceberg.

We have a PM who has consistently tried to subvert the rule of law and parliamentary procedures, and - something that seems to be dying on his watch - plain simple integrity and honesty.

He has now broken the law and been fined - this should be the moment when he resigns - not just for the law-breaking, but for all the other things he has done to undermine our cherished democracy.

The reason there are Tories who go on supporting him is because they are frightened of losing their jobs; of being left out of promotion. They are pursuing self interest rather than service, which is what they are there for.

We get closer and closer to a dictatorship - Putin's cronies support him out of self-interest, so he gets away with anything, and decency and honesty are lost. The parallels are frightening.

MayBee70

Yes and that scares me. It also scares me that we have so many extreme right wingers in govt at the moment who want, and are working for, the kind of govt that most of us don't want. Sadly many people don't recognise that.

I expect to be reading soon that some GNers are ganging up on others.

It scares me that so many members of GN don't have a problem with serious law breaking.

I don’t want to pick out anyone in particular, but I would like someone who is of the opinion that the fines and ‘partygate’ don’t matter to answer my post please. I’m trying to understand the thinking behind that view.

My own Conservative-voting friends are of the opinion that the Nolan Principles should be adhered to and think (very strongly in fact) that contravention of them is a resigning matter.

Maudi

What is predictable is a certain poster popping up after I have posted on every thread I'm on, if I didn't know better I would think you are fan.

Doubt it

grannyactivist

I know that people think ‘Partygate’ is meaningless in light of ‘weightier’ matters, but do those people then believe that standards in public life don’t matter? (This is a serious question, I’m not trying to bait anyone.)

The seven Nolan Principles underpin what, as a country, we should be able to trust our government to adhere to. If you like, it is the baseline for the expected behaviour of public officials. Are Boris Johnson’s supporters saying that the rules shouldn’t apply to him, or that they should no longer be adhered to by anyone in public service?

Selflessness – Holders of public office should act solely in terms of the public interest.

Integrity – Holders of public office must avoid placing themselves under any obligation to people or organisations that might try inappropriately to influence them in their work. They should not act or take decisions to gain financial or other material benefits for themselves, their family, or their friends. They must declare and resolve any interests and relationships.

Objectivity – Holders of public office must act and take decisions impartially, fairly and on merit, using the best evidence and without discrimination or bias.

Accountability – Holders of public office are accountable to the public for their decisions and actions and must submit themselves to the scrutiny necessary to ensure this.

Openness – Holders of public office should act and take decisions in an open and transparent manner. Information should not be withheld from the public unless there are clear and lawful reasons for so doing.

Honesty – Holders of public office should be truthful

Leadership - Holders of public office should exhibit these principles in their own behaviour and treat others with respect. They should actively promote and robustly support the principles and challenge poor behaviour wherever it occurs.

I’m using this long quote as this is one of the best posts I’ve seen on GN. Those Nolan principles are an eye opener when you read them and think of the current government, in particular its leader,

Looks like some of us do want to be ruled by a Government that makes rules for the electorate but thinks it does not have to stick to the rules themselves.

Oh for a moment I thought you were referring to Nicola Sturgeon - maskless (contrary to her own diktat) in a barber’s shop yesterday. A member of the public took a photo of her and reported the transgression to Police Scotland.

Mind you unlike with Boris I doubt anything will come of it.

I agree that some talk about criminality and lw-breaking seems a bit OPP.

If we substitute 'breaking rules' for 'breaking the law' it makes no difference and no one can dispute that rules were broken.

They were rules that were often draconian and were rigorously enforced. Members of the public were urged to 'report' people known to be breaking them and many Goers did so. I remember the threads well. To now pose as regarding all that as trivial is absurd.

For the Prime minister and his colleagues to have broken these rules is serious, not funny. For them to pretend otherwise is inexcusable.

Boris Johnson has been branded a “rogue Prime Minister unworthy of the Queen” in a devastating attack by a respected historian who sits in the House of Lords.

Crossbencher Peter Hennessy, who fought for transparency over the Ministerial Code, said Boris Johnson was “sweeping aside all the conventions” in an “assault on the institutions of the state”.

Lord Hennessy said after the PM refused to resign, he had “sullied” his office “like no other, turning it into an adventure playground for one man’s narcissistic vanity.”

Saying the PM had “broken the law, misled Parliament, and has in effect shredded the Ministerial Code”, he added: “The Queen’s First Minister is now beyond doubt a rogue Prime Minister, unworthy of her, her Parliament, her people and her Kingdom.

“I cannot remember a day when I’ve been more fearful for the wellbeing of the constitution.”

The Attlee Professor of Contemporary British History, who was handed a peerage in 2010, said the PM “must have knowingly misled” Parliament when he claimed the rules were followed at all times.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/partygate-boris-johnson-branded-rogue-26730747

Urmstongran

^Looks like some of us do want to be ruled by a Government that makes rules for the electorate but thinks it does not have to stick to the rules themselves.^

Oh for a moment I thought you were referring to Nicola Sturgeon - maskless (contrary to her own diktat) in a barber’s shop yesterday. A member of the public took a photo of her and reported the transgression to Police Scotland.

Mind you unlike with Boris I doubt anything will come of it.

You genuinely don’t get it, do you Urmstongran?

I do.

Where is the outrage from all those who "can't stand hypocrisy" and lecture us endlessly that "rule makers can't be rule breakers".

It couldn't be, could it, that their outrage at Johnson was all confected and politically motivated?
Surely not!
???????