Girls and Physics. It's too hard for them. ?

Well, growstuff, we'll have to agree to disagree. From what I listened to and subsequent discussions, I didn't see what you saw.

I did.

So did every female scientist I know or follow. Plus my OH, who is not female, but is a scientist.

Must be a "scientist" thing about actually hearing what is said, rather than what you would like to think was said.

Funny old world.

Actually, I think Ms Birbalsingh's biggest problem is that she's seen as a darling of the Conservative party. Yes, she does say some rather stupid things, she's perhaps rather opinionated (but that should go down pretty well on GN!) but if people were not constantly looking for things to dislike about the school and it's founder and focused on the profound difference the school and it's teachers is making for disadvantaged pupils instead, this might have been a rather different thread. There's lots of reliable data available that is impressive, the so called "draconian" discipline is ridiculously hyped by the media as are the teaching methods. Read what students say about their teachers on the 6th form website, it's pretty much what I would expect students at a top independent to say. Gosh, imagine that, disadvantaged kids in Brent are getting really great grades at "GCSE" and "A" level and getting into top universities and they are getting those opportunities via state education! I am not a Conservative voter, don't think KB should be a Social mobility Tsar (or whatever she is) but I think there's quite a lot of pettiness

Oh, and the IOP, Ofsted and the Astronomer Royal for Scotland.

Its got nothing to do with her abilities as a teacher.

It's because when it comes to STEM, she doesn't know what she is talking about but doesn't like to be disagreed with. And if the government listen to what she says, she is setting us back 40 years. At least.

I know this has nothing to do with science and maths. Last week at my sons graduation in law. 80% of the graduates were female. I mentioned several times throughout the day at how impressed I was. I think it’s a kick in the right direction

Couple of quotes from the Telegraph article for those who can't get past the paywall - will spread them over two posts:

"We’ve worked hard at my school to eradicate the social factors that might have restricted underprivileged students, including girls, from reaching their best potential. We’ve brought in speakers and experts to counter the perceived lack of female or ethnic role models, and introduced high standards, such as requiring all pupils to study double or triple science to GCSE. Any neutral observer would agree that we’ve achieved a great deal of success in taking such actions: in 2019 our science department was ranked third best in the country and our maths department topped the chart.

It is in this context that I reflected on the choice made by some of my girls not to study physics. They are certainly not being hindered by a lack of ambition or talent or teaching, so something else was likely to be at play. Perhaps it is because girls are more inclined to be empathetic while boys are more systematic, as a large quantity of evidence suggests. This doesn’t mean women cannot be excellent physicists or mathematicians – indeed, there are plenty of examples, including many of my own female maths and science teachers. But some of our girls have made the decision not to specialise in a particular subject and have done so with a clear mind, with external factors controlled. That is not necessarily a problem."

"In fact there is something corrosive about the belief, now prevalent in all sections of society, that an absence of exact ethnic or gender representation must be because something has gone wrong. It leads policymakers to conclude that any discrepancy is the product of discrimination when it could be the result of all manner of things, including natural factors that impact on a person’s happiness and sense of fulfilment.

Eventually, this belief devalues the freedom of young people, for it can culminate in attempts to manipulate natural ambitions in order to achieve unnecessary and entirely arbitrary targets. What would force-fed physics classes achieve for the girls at my school who enjoy other sciences? In the worst case, it might discourage them from exploring a subject area that they actually enjoy.

It also undermines our understanding of education. There will always be explanations for some discrepancies that do not fit neatly into the prevailing orthodoxy. If they are not taken as a legitimate part of the wider conversation, we will find ourselves creating new problems and neglecting current ones. One has to wonder what some people are trying to achieve by shutting down the contribution of a headmistress that is based on decades of experience."

Not sure what exactly is wrong with her views here - she is speaking from her own personal experience at her school.

She said it was natural that girls found maths harder than boys did.

It's not. It undermines decades of work on getting women into STEM.

All the rest is deflection on her part.

Please don't fall for it.

Both myself and my daughter had physics teachers who did not like girls in their class post GCSE level, obviously they both male but the same school. But I think it is more about the way of teaching the subject which seemed very pro male all about electronics etc. When you think about it cooking and baking is physics it is all about how things react when put together and heat is applied. Although it was years before I made the connection?

Well, All I can say is that one of my DD’s best friends was in charge of the NASA team responsible for the Mars landing.

volver

*She said it was natural that girls found maths harder than boys did.*

It's not. It undermines decades of work on getting women into STEM.

All the rest is deflection on her part.

Please don't fall for it.

No she isn't, if someone can undermine the "decades of work" that easily then clearly the work has not established anything of value. And no, I'm not falling for it, whatever "it" might be. I think there's a lot of reasons why a student might choose not to do physics at "A" level, one of them could be that think the maths might be difficult, another might be that they find it difficult to imagine what the subject would involve or indeed what careers it might lead to. It could be that parents have a view of what they deem to be a suitable subject for their child, particularly if they are a girl. Gender stereotyping is found in all walks of life and cultures and often that first move into higher education (whether from the working class or minority ethnic communities) is into the professions that are known and to some extent understood by the parents. IME, admittedly now a bit out of date, in some communities parents will play as large a part in a student's decision making as the school.

Is that you Katherine?

I read the comments about Ms Birbalsingh and I was surprised at some of the opinions. It is not salient to describe her remarks as rubbish. I know many of you were teachers and so was I in Australia, Papua New Guinea and UK. I think I have sufficient experience to comment. I was also someone with no ability in maths ( actually my difficulty was quite a help in primary school teaching as I was sympathetic to young children who found “sums” difficult.

I had to get special permission to get into Adelaide University because of my failure in the equivalent of “O” level maths. Needless to say I took chemistry as that was easier!

Apart from many long years in primary and secondary teaching, I lived close to the area of the Michaela school. There is a large Afro Caribbean population in the catchment area with a high number of school exclusions for bad behaviour. Ms Birbalsingh decided to have grammar school type of behaviour standards to improve educational standards and she has succeeded enabling more ethnic minority students to get into university. She deserves credit for that because Afro Caribbean parents want their children to succeed as much as any other parents do. I currently live in a Caribbean country and see this desire all the time.
Next I knew that the number of females studying Physics at university in UK was low so I looked at some statistics which illustrate that fact.
These graphs are illuminating

www.iop.org/sites/default/files/2019-10/Students-graduates-in-UK-physics-departments.pdf

I am very disappointed that so few posts were about the lack of females taking physics and seemed to concentrate on Ms Birbalsingh’s quaifications to state an opinion. The figures from universities are facts. We can all have opinions.

Ofcourse she is a Conservative. If she had been a Labour member or a real Socialist and had stated this opinion anyone who dared to disagree would have “racist” epithets thrown at them which shuts down any criticism, but not in Ms Birbalsingh’s case.

Why didn’t more girls like us study physics at university? I would have hated it and was not good enough. However Like many of you I have an MSc. from a top UK university but it was in Economics! I was even offered a job there but refused because I knew I would not enjoy teaching Economics. I did not “feel” I was good enough in the subject!

volver

Is that you Katherine?

volver

Is that you Katherine?

???

As far as her schools excellent results go I think if you took any school anywhere cut its numbers down to under 900 pupils and had one teacher to 12 children you could improve results immediately. I wish she was speaking out and asking for the same funding for all.

Thank you volver I always knew I was useless at Maths, that hopeless teacher taught me that before I ever wasted all that time calculating pi, but arithmetic is clearly the sort of maths that real people need, rather than the esoteric stuff you think is interesting.

I have been and will, obviously, now always be useless at Maths, despite the many other, very valid parts of my life. I consider that a result.

No I clearly do not believe that being numerate and valuing literature and arts are mutually exclusive, but complicated maths is clearly unnecessary, although not necessarily a good thing, to hold down for a good, satisfying, skilled career in science.

Those that can develop those complex skills, should do so, whether male or female and should not be deterred from studying the subject but, on the other hand, those that can only aspire, and we all know where our comfort levels lie, to advanced arithmetic, must not be put off getting far as we can.

Arithmetic isn't the same as Maths.

Advanced arithmetic (?) isn't Maths.

When people say they aren't good at maths, they generally mean that they're not very quick at mental arithmetic.

Anybody who thinks not being good at Maths is a "result", has been very misled in life.

Glorianny

As far as her schools excellent results go I think if you took any school anywhere cut its numbers down to under 900 pupils and had one teacher to 12 children you could improve results immediately. I wish she was speaking out and asking for the same funding for all.

Unless she has been able to access extra funding, Free Schools don't get extra funding (happy to be corrected if I am wrong) but the annual income will be based on an amount for each pupil + pupil premium for eligible pupils, same as any other school in Brent. Actually, having been a COG at a school which moved into a mixed academy trust in 2017, the financial benefit had disappeared completely. I think the low pupil to teacher ratio is because of how the school is organised and the fact that she employs young teachers so they are relatively cheap.

This is the reason women are ending up in poorly paid jobs and struggling financially- they should be taught which careers are the most highly paid- it's all very well "following your heart" into the caring professions, but as we've seen they don't pay the bills these days! I'm sure if schools were more upfront about the realities of life, and how things are harder for women (they are the majority taking career breaks for children and taking a pay cut) while men forge ahead in their careers, and single women bringing up kids on their own struggle financially. And if I had my time again, I'd have looked into the best paying careers ( tech, finance) and gone for one of those.

I have A levels in Pure Maths, Applied Maths, Physics and Chemistry. Taken in the 1960s. Girls can do just as well as boys, probably better, as they have a better work ethic.

foxie48

Glorianny

As far as her schools excellent results go I think if you took any school anywhere cut its numbers down to under 900 pupils and had one teacher to 12 children you could improve results immediately. I wish she was speaking out and asking for the same funding for all.

Unless she has been able to access extra funding, Free Schools don't get extra funding (happy to be corrected if I am wrong) but the annual income will be based on an amount for each pupil + pupil premium for eligible pupils, same as any other school in Brent. Actually, having been a COG at a school which moved into a mixed academy trust in 2017, the financial benefit had disappeared completely. I think the low pupil to teacher ratio is because of how the school is organised and the fact that she employs young teachers so they are relatively cheap.

I'm not so sure about that.

Make of this what you will:

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1030066/2021_Special_Free_School_Revenue_Funding_Guidance_311021.pdf

I expect many of her pupils attract Pupil Premium, which the school is then free to spend as it wishes. She also doesn't employ any Teaching Assistants.

My daughter managed to get 'A' grades at A level in Maths, Applied Maths, Physics and Chemistry. She went on to study Maths at University and has a Master's in Maths.

The trouble in this country is it is not 'cool' to study such subjects. This applies to boys as well. My children were never in the 'popular' group at school.

My daughter had a better work ethic than her brother. She still found time, when doing her 'A' Levels to carry on with Rangers, ballet and keyboard lessons.

I also meant to mention that my daughter-in-law has a Master's in Physics.