Roe v Wade

There was a time in USA history, long before Roe v Wade, when abortion was legal, although it probably wasn't particularly safe. When doctors – obstetricians and gynaecologists – superseded midwives as primary carers for women's health, it became illegal. Coincidentally, of course, those obstetricians and gynaecologists were all men.

By the way, the argument that the Constitution doesn't mention abortion is a red herring. The Constitution doesn't mention women at all.

I read that Joe Biden disapproved of the Roe v Wade ruling in around 1974, and said that "women do not have the sole right to say what should happen to their bodies". He later changed his views.

The United Reformed Church is accepting of abortion " with some exceptions", and within those " exceptions" urges compassion for the mother and support for her decision as the most important consideration.

What has Megan got to say?

Zonne - thank you that’s really interesting.

Elegran, furthermore, Doctors are not "required" to give abortions. When I had mine, I had to wait until the Doctor who would be giving the second pessary could be asked if he was willing to do it when he came on duty. If I remember rightly, I also had to have 2 medical professionals agree that it fell within the legal requirements.

Sarah Palin, as Governor of Alaska, alleged that in the UK her handicapped daughter would not have been allowed to be born. That level of ignorance still exists.

Perhaps it should be made clear that because something is not illegal, that does not mean that it is obligatory!

If Sarah Palin had been British, she could have still have given birth to her daughter and raised her, exactly as she has done. That is what is meant by choice . In fact, she would have had a great deal of help and support from the British (free) medical and welfare organisations.

For the benefit of posters in the US, (some of whom believe that in the UK a woman just has to say "Book me in for an abortion, please" for it to happen automatically) here are the grounds for abortion and their definitions. From www.gov.uk.

Grounds for abortion

Ground A That the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman greater than if the pregnancy were terminated.
Ground B That the termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman.
Ground That the pregnancy has NOT exceeded its 24th week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman.
Ground D That the pregnancy has NOT exceeded its 24th week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of any existing child(ren) of the family of the pregnant woman.
Ground E That there is substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.
Ground F To save the life of the pregnant woman.
Ground G To prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman.

The legal limit for a woman having an abortion is 24 weeks gestation. This is the point at which the fetus is viable outside the mother's body. Abortions may be performed after 24 weeks in certain circumstances, for example, if the mother's life is at risk or the child would be born severely disabled. Abortions where gestation is 24 weeks or over account for a very small number of abortions (0.1% of the total).
From www.gov.uk

Kandinsky

The Church of England also takes an extremely dim view on abortion, so I’m not sure what the argument is here?

Is there any religion that’s ‘okay’ with abortion?

Yes. Both Islam and Judaism.

For Muslims, as far as I understand, all authorities and laws allow abortion in the first trimester because there is no soul in a foetus until after 120 days. Abortion can be permitted in certain circumstances later than this, although that’s less firmly agreed.

In Judaism, it is not just permitted, it is a religious requirement.

For Jews, life begins at birth. For the fist 40 days after conception, the foetus is ‘mere water’, and from then until birth, it is a part of the mother (‘as if it’s the thigh’ the Talmud says, I believe) and she determines what happens to it.

More than that, Jewish sources (because of Rodef) say that abortion is not only permitted, but required, should pregnancy threaten the life or health (including mental health and well-being) of the pregnant person.

It’s likely that attempts to overturn Roe will be countered by legal challenges on the grounds of religious freedom by American Jewish organisations.

Dickens says it all really.
I started training as a nurse just prior to the ‘67 Abortion Act, and can sadly remember working on a gynae ward where women were admitted after back street abortions.
Often it was too late and two died of septicaemia (sepsis) whilst I was there.

If abortion is illegal women will go to any lengths to terminate the pregnancy, including putting their own lives at risk.

www.prri.org/research/2020-census-of-american-religion/
It's certainly true that the percentage of Evangelical Christians mean they are a strong electoral force and some of the churches have views, which to my mind, are very extreme and quite unpleasant which they support by very literal interpretation of the bible. There are strong links between white supremacists, Christian extremists and Nationalists. America is, in deed, a difficult country to understand.

I suspect also that many of them have consistently refused to wear a mask for a few minutes in a shop or theatre or transport, but think it no big deal to insist that a woman tolerates 10 months of unwanted pregnancy.

Iam64

Kandinsky most major faiths accept termination in circumstances where the life of the mother or serious foetal abnormalities exist.
America is a strange country, where the religious right have more influence than in most other countries. They kill people with impunity, including state approved murder in the electric chair.

Anyone who supports the right to own a gun to kill, has no moral authority to pronounce on abortion.

Kandinsky most major faiths accept termination in circumstances where the life of the mother or serious foetal abnormalities exist.
America is a strange country, where the religious right have more influence than in most other countries. They kill people with impunity, including state approved murder in the electric chair.

Dickens

^Some fool senator assured his listeners that in the course of "true" rape a woman's body "shuts down" and will not become pregnant, obviously implying that anyone seeking abortion because of pregnancy as a result of rape is lying, was complicit and should be punished by being forced to carry the child to term. There have even been suggestions that any woman who has an abortion should be executed.^

I've heard this nonsense about a woman's body shutting down if it's a 'true' rape here, too.

How can such ignorant fools be allowed to be involved in the decision-making process?

As for executing women who have abortions... I utterly despair at the misogyny. Worse still, there are women no doubt who would agree with this.

One of the things that really upsets me is that since we voted to Leave, we are now aligning ourselves more closely with the USA.

Misogyny is based on fear, male insecurity and inadequacy, and sheer ignorance. Hence the need for men to control all aspects of a woman's life. They can't cope with their own deficiency, don't even recognise that they are insufficient... and that makes them very dangerous. They are - these particular type men - unstable and psychopathic. And they are making these legislative decisions. It's too frightening.

This was also a belief in the 17th century. I do wonder has there been some sort of time warp in the US? Will they soon be burning witches again?

Urmstongran

Mind you funny how the left are all up in arms about this but when it comes to trans women (basically biological men) trampling all over women’s sports and their rights, the left are all for that. Pick a side why don’t you.

You're talking apples and oranges here. 2 entirely different issues.

DaisyAnne

Glorianny

DaisyAnne

Glorianny

We don't have a written constitution.

I think the Supreme court will eventually over throw RvW which will mean some states will make abortion very difficult if not impossible. Abortion will still be permitted in more liberal states which means women will travel to access abortion as they did in the past. The problem now is that some of those women will face prosecution when they return home.

We do have a written constitution. We don't have a codified constitution.

Can you provide me with a link to this constitution please. Your previous post which was a quote stated quite clearly there is no written constitution. But if you have evidence and a link to one I'm quite willing to be corrected.
As far as I know the UK has never had a written constitution.
Some people think we should have one.

A single link to an uncodified constitution appears to be an oxymoron. So no, no one would be able to provide you with it although they may be able to direct you to libraries that could help. As I said, it isn't in a "single document". I'm not sure what I can add for clarification to "written but not codified."

It's not surprising, given the very different dates when our Kingdoms were recognised, the subsequent creation of the United Kingdom and the changes in Ireland, that, like Topsy it "just growed". It was easier for the much younger USA to create a codified (planned and organised) constitution. However, we have made agreements and laws over the centuries and give or take the odd hiccup, I would say our system works as well as theirs does.

If you want to see the various laws, rules and regulations I'm afraid you would need to consult a constitutional historian. I can't imagine you would think someone on GN would have that sort of time to give.

But I could give you a link straight to the US constitution DaisyAnne. There is no British constitution. Many people think there are rules but they are continually being tested. Take the position of the RF. QE is a constitutional monarch and therefore theoretically unable to interfere in government and do little except sign the legislation the elected government passes. Except there is evidence that she and other Royals have interfered and influenced legislation about their tax position. Which is one reason many think the position of the RF should be properly set out in a proper written constitution.

The Church of England also takes an extremely dim view on abortion, so I’m not sure what the argument is here?

Is there any religion that’s ‘okay’ with abortion?

I repeat, " religious " is not the same as embracing one particular branch of Christianity.

So not "if you are religious" then Kandinsky but "if you are of certain religion they will tell you how to think". The one thing I have learned bout Catholics (as opposed to Catholicism) is that most, these days, are prepared to think for themselves. I don't know how they square that circle though.

DaisyAnne

Catholicism.

Have an abortion & you’re excommunicated - one of the very few reasons anyone is kicked out of the Catholic Church.

There have even been suggestions that any woman who has an abortion should be executed. absent Wed 04-May-22 20:34:47

I want to weep. Would they then hang them on the "wall".

Kandinsky

Pedwards

The death penalty & the right to shot someone is not the same as killing an innocent unborn child.
If you’re religious - abortion is the ultimate sin. Far far worse than killing an adult criminal ( death penalty ) or even killing any adult.

Which religion would that be?

Some fool senator assured his listeners that in the course of "true" rape a woman's body "shuts down" and will not become pregnant, obviously implying that anyone seeking abortion because of pregnancy as a result of rape is lying, was complicit and should be punished by being forced to carry the child to term. There have even been suggestions that any woman who has an abortion should be executed.

I've heard this nonsense about a woman's body shutting down if it's a 'true' rape here, too.

How can such ignorant fools be allowed to be involved in the decision-making process?

As for executing women who have abortions... I utterly despair at the misogyny. Worse still, there are women no doubt who would agree with this.

One of the things that really upsets me is that since we voted to Leave, we are now aligning ourselves more closely with the USA.

Misogyny is based on fear, male insecurity and inadequacy, and sheer ignorance. Hence the need for men to control all aspects of a woman's life. They can't cope with their own deficiency, don't even recognise that they are insufficient... and that makes them very dangerous. They are - these particular type men - unstable and psychopathic. And they are making these legislative decisions. It's too frightening.

I am" religious ". I am a Christian. Kandinsky, please don't put words in my mouth that are abhorrent to me.