Nationalism the fashionable form of government

If Scotland votes to leave the Union and consequently joins the EU, there will have to be a hard border between England and Scotland.

We have seen the disaster that is NI do we really want similar here on the mainland?

As a lifelong Trade Unionist I am a firm believer that unity is strength. I didn't want to leave the EU, and I don't want to see the UK disbanded, particularly so soon after Brexit, as it would mean going from being part of a powerful union of states to a tiny part of a tiny island without time to adapt to any of it.

Having said that, I would very much like to see a better system than the current Londoncentric rule, which means that far more per head is spent on Londoners than on people in other areas. I'm not sure how devolution could work in the short term, as simply dividing us into self-governing areas would mean taking a lot of inequality with us (or keeping it for the lucky few), but ultimately I think it would be much fairer to spread the power about more.

I think I like the idea of moving parliament around the country (maybe for 5 years at a time), and insisting that cabinet members move with it. If they had to live in an area with their families they would be much more alert to regional inequalities than they are in their 'Westminster bubble', and it would help with the 'levelling up' that they claim is driving their agenda, but which won't happen as long as London is seen as the centre of the country.

The Welsh seem able to be proud of their nation and their traditions without being jingoistic.

Welsh Labour and Plaid have formulated a co-operation agreement recently; whether that is a good thing or not remains to be seen.

I bet no-one on here thinks the Ukrainian nationalism – people fighting for the sovereignty of their nation – that's happening right now is a bad thing.

Which by the way would leave a lot more money for the English National Health and Education System. So maybe you should change your attitude about how you think we English perceive you.

So you perceive Scotland as a financial burden on England.
That's what we thought.

It isn't true, by the way.

Baggs

I bet no-one on here thinks the Ukrainian nationalism – people fighting for the sovereignty of their nation – that's happening right now is a bad thing.

It's only bad if it's Engerland and the English flag.

Yammy I don't actually give a flying f*** how "you the English" perceive us. We'll make our own decisions. If we decide to stay in the Union, we will. If we decide to leave, we will.

WWM2 I agree with you that right now there isn't a majority view for independence in Scotland, but that doesn't mean that there will never be and it doesn't mean I'm going to shut up about it either . But its also why I don't think we should be having another referendum soon, as we'll only get one more chance at it in my lifetime and so we have to be in a good position.

Callistemon21

Baggs

I bet no-one on here thinks the Ukrainian nationalism – people fighting for the sovereignty of their nation – that's happening right now is a bad thing.

It's only bad if it's Engerland and the English flag.

A couple of weeks ago Callistemon I made a post about how the English should reclaim their flag. Having a chip on the shoulder about how everybody hates them is more like nationalism that anything that the Celtic nations are doing.

Going back to what I think was the original purpose of this thread: I think there have been, over decades now, a range of drivers, which both sit alongside and inform what seems to be a perfectly reasonable desire for autonomy and self-determination.

Within the current UK, I think factors vary across Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, but a common denominator for two of them has been the clear evidence that devolved government works, and has made even more apparent that there are marked social, policy and political (and not just party political) divergences with England, which aren’t fully realisable within the current governance framework.

Alongside this, over relatively recent decades, there is an international evidence base of counties of varied sizes and economic position becoming independent, and not regretting it- which is probably the only metric of success one should use - providing exemplars, reassurance and encouragement to others.

volver

Yammy I don't actually give a flying f*** how "you the English" perceive us. We'll make our own decisions. If we decide to stay in the Union, we will. If we decide to leave, we will.

WWM2 I agree with you that right now there isn't a majority view for independence in Scotland, but that doesn't mean that there will never be and it doesn't mean I'm going to shut up about it either . But its also why I don't think we should be having another referendum soon, as we'll only get one more chance at it in my lifetime and so we have to be in a good position.

It’s like me and Brexit ?

But I think that there is a big majority for the U.K. to mitigate some of the major bars to frictionless trade.

CU and SM would be popular I think.

We DON'T have a Nationalist government.
We have a mandatory coalition. (and it doesn't work!)

I'm sick of people talking about SF's victory.
Can I just clarify that the NI election result was not a resounding victory for SF, but a dismal failure for DUP, who lost votes mainly to Alliance. SF did not gain any seats.

change from 2017
SF +1.1%
DUP -6.7%

1st preference vote
Republican 38.1%
Unionist 40.1%

Many unionists voted Alliance because they are fed up with our present government, whom DUP support.
Wanting independence is not the same as nationalism.

The fact is though that we don't have any government at the minute. DUP want the protocol sorted first. They are criticised for this. But SF did exactly the same thing a few years back.
I'm not a DUP supporter but neither do I support SF.
Has everyone forgotten how they encouraged large crowds at a terrorist's funeral which SF leaders attended during the pandemic. Can you imagine if Boris had done that.

GrannyGravy13

If Scotland votes to leave the Union and consequently joins the EU, there will have to be a hard border between England and Scotland.

We have seen the disaster that is NI do we really want similar here on the mainland?

I’m not sure it’s perceived as a disaster in Northern Ireland. The recent election results suggest it’s more popular than the English government and the DUP think.

Plus, there is no guarantee that the current treaty arrangements between the UK and EU will endure forever.

volver

Callistemon21

Baggs

I bet no-one on here thinks the Ukrainian nationalism – people fighting for the sovereignty of their nation – that's happening right now is a bad thing.

It's only bad if it's Engerland and the English flag.

A couple of weeks ago Callistemon I made a post about how the English should reclaim their flag. Having a chip on the shoulder about how everybody hates them is more like nationalism that anything that the Celtic nations are doing.

Yes, they should reclaim it.
I think Emily Thornberry didn't help ???????

Our neighbours used to fly the Cornish flag (in Wales) but I'm not sure that they're Cornish!

Apparently notCallistemon look at the comments about Scots and Scotland and you can clearly see the attitude toward all things Scottish...well all things pertaining to Scotland as anything but a region of England which we are not and never have been .

Yammy As has been explained thousands of times Scottish taxes/revenues/etc. sent to Westminster from Scotland vastly exceeds the sum sent back to Scotland via the Barnett Formula. The difference between money collected and money returned is supposed to cover UK wide expenditure which means that Scots are contributing to road & Rail improvements which do not extend over the border, whereas the Scottish Government alone had to foot the entire bill for the Queensferry Crossing. Another blatant example was the fact that the UK government contributed not a single penny to the highly successful Commonwealth Games in Glasgow, (costs met by the SG and business sponsorship), but made a substantial contribution to the Olympic Games in London, which left a legacy of improved infrastructure for London - partly funded by tax payers in Scotland. Scots also have to contribute to repairs to Houses of Parliament, Big Ben, Royal Palaces, the House of Lords and so on - all expenditure that dose not contribute anything to the Scottish Economy.

I could go on all day with examples - suffice to say that when Scotland leaves the UK and is no longer contributing to the betterment of London and the SE, nor the UK's nuclear weapons, repairs to Westminster and Royal palaces, etc. etc AND is on the other hand charging the RumpUK for all the water, electricity. oil and gas, (which Scotland has in abundance with excess to export, and England needs ). Currently these assets cross the border with no monetary advantage to Scotland's economy - Indeed Scotland is charged to put their surplus electricity onto the National Grid, while Power produced near London is given a bonus payment for adding it to the grid. There are too many other examples to list them all here. Check out/google what economists have to say about the economy of Scotland after Independence - They are all agreed that Scotland, because of her assets in land, sea, wind, water, oil, etc. and a highly educated population, would be the richest part of the British Isles and welcomed with open arms back into the EU.

Zonne GrannyGravy13 is correct. It is a disaster here in NI.
But our situation is different to Wales and Scotland.

nadateturbe

Zonne GrannyGravy13 is correct. It is a disaster here in NI.
But our situation is different to Wales and Scotland.

That’s interesting. My ex in-laws - staunch unionists all of them - say the Protocol is making the best of a bad job, and through it, Brexit is working better for businesses there than than it is in the rest of the UK.

It’s always good to have different views and information. What would improve either the Protocol or Brexit for Northern Ireland?

paddyann54

Volver wheres that wall for banging heads against?

We have a mute button on our TV it's called "Nicola" my relations in Aberdeen call theirs "The wee Crankie."
So not all Scots think as you do or would like them to you are not speaking for the whole population of Scotland.
And yes it's Ian Blackford we mute him too.

Oh grow up Yammy

BTW, "Crankie" is spelt with a K

Yammy What do you hope to gain by never listening to what the First Minister is saying? You might be pleasantly surprised or, on the other hand you would at least * Know Your Enemy*

The issue is Yammy that you are demonstrating what people in the other nations interpret as English perceived leadership of the UK. I’m not sure whether you even know that’s what underpins your posts, and presumably your thinking as well.

I am not being contentious here, or not deliberately anyway, but do nationalists think that assets such as oil, wind, money should 'belong to' the people who live nearest to them, or that they are collectively owned by the people of the UK? Or something else, obviously.

I am not at all nationalist (English, but definitely not London ) and have never quite understood why land boundaries, which after all are just the results of territorial skirmishes between long-dead men who forced their serfs and tenants to fight for them are so important to so many. They were basically decided by gang fights and turf wars.

Yes, there are different ways of doing things in different societies, and these are usually separated by boundaries, but I am a bit bemused by the rationale for this, and why people can be so vehement about 'belonging' to one side or the other of such borders. I can understand people wanting to protect their customs and way of life from attack (eg in Ukraine) when someone wants to impose different ways and laws upon them, but surely that's not comparable to the situation here? Maybe in Ireland, which is a separate island, but is that the case on 'mainland Britain', where we've shared mainstream culture for hundreds of years.

I'm pretty much thinking aloud here, and there are probably a million holes in my 'argument', such as it is, but I really don't know how anyone can claim that they and their neighbours 'own' fish or oil or 'deserve' financial advantage from being located in the area with the most financial institutions. In the days when the boundaries were being disputed the average person (wherever they lived) would have been transported for poaching - it's not as though there was a time when assets were owned by the local residents of any area. Not when they could be mined, or farmed or otherwise exploited beyond a subsistence situation, at least.

Nationalism is a very dangerous political force, whether or the left or right. It separates people rather than bringing them together and encourages dislike of "the Other".

I agree with you that comparisons with Russia and Ukraine are not comparable Doodledogbut I’m going to use that as an example.

Russia keep telling everyone that Ukraine is really just part of Russia, that Ukrainians are really Russians, and all that. But obviously the Ukrainians believe they are different and none of us are in a position to argue with that I think.

And Scots and English, or Welsh and English, are different from each other. I’ll stick with Scotland because that’s what I know about. Scotland was a different country from England for all but 300 years of its history. The land border jumped around a bit but England and Scotland are as different as Norway and Sweden, or Ukraine and Russia. We are all just used to the four nations being part of the UK, but its not a natural law. I would also not agree that we have shared the same mainstream culture for hundreds of years. Not at all.

Its Scotland’s oil was dropped as a slogan a few decades ago because that’s not the point any more. The point is, we are a different country, joined in a voluntary union, and some of us would like out. When we are (sneeringly) asked where the money will come from, then the oil and the fish and all the rest of it are brought up.

And nobody owns the wind.