The loss of freedom of speech, of sidelining women and biology

It's the convoluted twisted and turning that people have to do that makes me sad to be honest. The biological advantage men have in sport is because they are men that is the advantage. They havent magically turned into women. The advantage men possess from being men transfers to all situations, prisons refuges etc, this gives them horrific 'advantages' in those places too.

I'm not clear any sort of "proof" of being genuine would work, but it would be a way to weed out those, who have no wish to actually be a "woman", accessing spaces, treatments etc under this current free for all.

Obviously, a biological man can never actually become a woman, whatever they might wish for. Or vice versa. It's just not possible.?

FarNorth

*AussieNana*, your idea of official trans status being accorded only to those who have had specific surgery is never going to happen, at least in Western countries.
I believe that it is required in Iran, and mostly used to convert gay men into 'women'.
(Being gay is illegal there.)

Even when a person has a gender recognition certificate, that is a legal fiction - they have not really changed sex.

Being diagnosed with gender dysphoria should be a minimum for trans status, I'd say, and not just a rubber stamped 'diagnosis' as seems to have been happening with children & young people in the Tavistock clinic.

They have changed gender if you like - we all know it isn't changing biological sex.

It wasn't actually my idea, I think it was diamond lily or elegran who floated it.

I agreed it had merit and of course there would have to be mininmum defined criteria. - whether governments do it is another thing.

This is an account of one person's experience with the Tavistock clinic, in the Times.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/my-adolescence-was-chemically-delayed-i-was-their-guinea-pig-bbs3w00ph?shareToken=d2f5f4812a8c28677dc50974d0ea57f6&fbclid=IwAR3owD-l6QKE-2MnhHhTj5N88ewFl1Xzt3FeEMkIdYQmljyb64qSmWyK2HY

(no paywall)

AussieNana, your idea of official trans status being accorded only to those who have had specific surgery is never going to happen, at least in Western countries.
I believe that it is required in Iran, and mostly used to convert gay men into 'women'.
(Being gay is illegal there.)

Even when a person has a gender recognition certificate, that is a legal fiction - they have not really changed sex.

Being diagnosed with gender dysphoria should be a minimum for trans status, I'd say, and not just a rubber stamped 'diagnosis' as seems to have been happening with children & young people in the Tavistock clinic.

Mollygo

AN
I’d agree, providing they are not using the transition to cheat in sport, to deprive females of the right to safe spaces, to obtain jobs and positions that are intended for adult human females, or lying by pretending to be female in places e.g. female medical appointments where a female attendant has been requested.
Do you agree that in all those situations, the original sex of the person is more important than the gender they have/say they have transitioned into or do you feel that males (transition does not change biological sex) have the right to override female rights?

well for starters I don' see fully transitioned people as still being their birth gender.
and I dont see any rights being over ridden by transitioned women (or men, it works other way too) accessing spaces like toilets

I only think the original gender of the person is more important in situations where it would give an unfair advantage - eg in gender divided physical sports competitions
that part only applies to people previously men, of course.

also you didnt answer my question about what you meant by your previous post about me - could you explain it please.

I dont see the same issue with toilets etc - since there is no competition in them whereby a genetically male body is an advantage.
Well I wouldn’t use the word ‘competition’ in this context (and neither, of course, were you); but a stronger male body would be a distinct advantage if he decided to assault or rape a woman under the cover of being female himself. This is why we have sex-segregated spaces in the first place.

yes I agree single non divided cubicles is ideal - but reality is that isnt the case everywhere so you need a plan for how to manage in the meantime.
If, as you say, single cubicles are ideal, then anything else is less than ideal. Why should women put up with less than ideal facilities because some men want to share them? Apart from the risk of assault there is the whole leaving the seat up and peeing on the floor thing that women don’t need to put up with either.

the pass idea was floated by somebody else - as I understand it, the idea would be fully tranistioned people could access that gender facility but the type posters seem worried about - men just decidnt today to be a woman for malicious purposes, could not.
How would that work though? Apart from the fact that Stonewall would block any sort of register or ID scheme (probably with good reason) it would require a pass-checker outside of every Ladies room, which isn’t going to happen, and it would expose the trans status of everyone showing such a pass to anyone choosing to loiter outside, quite possibly putting them at risk.

I was sent this link today. If the lack of subject knowledge wasn’t so serious . . .
What is a woman?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=5mnQTzhVgl8

AN
I’d agree, providing they are not using the transition to cheat in sport, to deprive females of the right to safe spaces, to obtain jobs and positions that are intended for adult human females, or lying by pretending to be female in places e.g. female medical appointments where a female attendant has been requested.
Do you agree that in all those situations, the original sex of the person is more important than the gender they have/say they have transitioned into or do you feel that males (transition does not change biological sex) have the right to override female rights?

Rosie51

AussieNanna may I ask what you mean by 'fully transitioned'? Do you mean surgery to bring external sex appearance in line with the other sex or just dressing as a stereotypical woman? The vast majority of male transitioners undergo no surgery whatsoever, they're far too attached to their penis.

What do we say to women who for religious or cultural reasons are not able to share a space with an unrelated male? And that's besides those women who want a strictly single sex space for reasons of dignity, privacy, safety or trauma.
Transwomen claim they are women. Not enough challenge was made and now we have the likes of Emily Bridges the trans cyclist who claims not to want special treatment just to be treated like "my fellow female athletes" Emily is biologically male, fully intact but feels free to appropriate the word female as applying to him. Woman is not enough, now he comes for female as well. What next?
An official pass is not going to happen ever, because politicians are too scared of cancel culture, and so go along with the propaganda. For the "most vulnerable, marginalised minority ever" they seem to wield an awful lot of power. Women should be able to have single sex spaces without incurring the wrath of men, any men.
Debbie Hayton a transwoman who has had full surgery tweets quite often that a single sex space that admits a transwoman is no longer single sex, but mixed sex. Debbie is a science teacher If you allow one type of male into female spaces what's the justification for keeping the other males out? Surely that's blatant discrimination?

Im not exactly sure where I would draw the line on what I would call fully transitioned- but there would IMO have to be some definition and it would have to be far more than just dressing as a woman. It would have to involve some sort of long term permanant medical changes - surgery, hormones etc.

I agree an official pass probably wont happen - but I agreed with poster who suggested it , as it being a good idea.

and No, I dont see the slippery slope worry - it isnt blatant discrimination, or allowing one type of man. ( or woman - because same applies to either gender transitioning)

FarNorth

AussieNanna

No I don't think that would be right Far North - but a person who decided this a week ago wouldn't be a fully transitioned person, would they?

Indeed they wouldn't AussieNana and yet it's happening.
Male criminals, at some point after arrest or during their imprisonment, reveal their 'true identity' and get themselves transferred to a women's prison.

well I don't agree with that and have not said I do.

Agreeing with some aspects of an issue does not mean agreeing with all aspects or to all degrees.

I do think transitioned people should be treated as the gender they have transitioned to

ScotGov Bill going thru parliament at the moment proposes self-identification of sex for anyone who wants it, with no diagnosis required and only a 3 month wait for 'reflection'.
So, not actually instant for someone who has decided today that he is a woman, but very little deterrent to someone who has bad intent.

In any case, self-identification is being accepted as if it is legal anyway - just on a man's say-so.

The definition of Man, by the way, is adult human male.
A person can't be male in one situation and a woman in another.

Mollygo

I definitely think I’ve read your posts before AN, and your stance of “If I like it (changing rooms etc.) then it’s acceptable, but if I don’t (males cheating in female sport) then it’s unacceptable”, endorses that. I could be wrong, but that in a way makes it even worse.

Im not sure what you mean by you have read my posts before??

all my posts on this subject are here on this thread, of course you can read them

am not sure what you are saying - I have presented my point of view on some aspects of this issue and have done so, I believe, in civil and courteous manner.

not getting what you could be wrong about or how it is worse??

wrong about what??

worse than what??

Galaxy

I dont know how to explain it any other way. You are not happy with transwomen in sport because they are men. No other group of women would you say you cant compete in female sport but you can go in female refuges for example. None.
I on the whole think toilets can be solved relatively easily either by mixed sex and single sex provision alongside each other or completely enclosed single cubicles.
It is refuges sport prisons and crime statistics that need to remain single sex. Men who understand women are entitled to boundaries understand this.
I dont really understand the pass thing. What difference to people think a pass will make to women who dont consent to sharing a space with men.

what I said was I agree with not allowing men who have tranisitioned to be women into women's sports - because they would have an unfair biological advantage.
Not because they are men but because they have genetic or biological advatnge from being birth biology
I don't see them as now being men

I dont see the same issue with toilets etc - since there is no competition in them whereby a genetically male body is an advantage

yes I agree single non divided cubicles is ideal - but reality is that isnt the case everywhere so you need a plan for how to manage in the meantime.

the pass idea was floated by somebody else - as I understand it, the idea would be fully tranistioned people could access that gender facility but the type posters seem worried about - men just decidnt today to be a woman for malicious purposes, could not.

And about time too:

The International Cycling Union has tightened rules for transgender athletes in a benchmark ruling as swimming's governing body prepares to make a major change to its policy on the controversial topic.

Trans competitors will now have to wait longer to compete after transitioning between genders under the UCI's ruling, which doubled the period from 12 months to two years. The body also announced it is halving the maximum testosterone level permitted for trans women to compete in the female category.

The world governing body for swimming, FINA, is due to announce a new transgender policy at a meeting in Budapest on Sunday, Australian time.
Recommendations made to FINA are incredibly sensitive and the body will break with its normal processes and let all its members vote on the far-reaching changes, according to a News Corp report.
Three independent panels are making recommendations, the report states - one featuring scientists, another comprised of legal experts and the third made up of athletes, including trans competitors.

AussieNanna may I ask what you mean by 'fully transitioned'? Do you mean surgery to bring external sex appearance in line with the other sex or just dressing as a stereotypical woman? The vast majority of male transitioners undergo no surgery whatsoever, they're far too attached to their penis.

What do we say to women who for religious or cultural reasons are not able to share a space with an unrelated male? And that's besides those women who want a strictly single sex space for reasons of dignity, privacy, safety or trauma.
Transwomen claim they are women. Not enough challenge was made and now we have the likes of Emily Bridges the trans cyclist who claims not to want special treatment just to be treated like "my fellow female athletes" Emily is biologically male, fully intact but feels free to appropriate the word female as applying to him. Woman is not enough, now he comes for female as well. What next?
An official pass is not going to happen ever, because politicians are too scared of cancel culture, and so go along with the propaganda. For the "most vulnerable, marginalised minority ever" they seem to wield an awful lot of power. Women should be able to have single sex spaces without incurring the wrath of men, any men.
Debbie Hayton a transwoman who has had full surgery tweets quite often that a single sex space that admits a transwoman is no longer single sex, but mixed sex. Debbie is a science teacher If you allow one type of male into female spaces what's the justification for keeping the other males out? Surely that's blatant discrimination?

AussieNanna

No I don't think that would be right Far North - but a person who decided this a week ago wouldn't be a fully transitioned person, would they?

Indeed they wouldn't AussieNana and yet it's happening.
Male criminals, at some point after arrest or during their imprisonment, reveal their 'true identity' and get themselves transferred to a women's prison.

£2,500 a year.

AussieNanna

No I don't think that would be right Far North - but a person who decided this a week ago wouldn't be a fully transitioned person, would they?

The Gender Act says that to apply for a certificate of gender change, the applicant must have started or intend to start to undertake transition.

Galaxy I suspect that those who don't believe that transwomen are women are ultimately on a hiding to nowhere, and may need a pragmatic compromise position to fall back on which involves showing some kind of identity card.

The zeitgeist of the age, illogical though it is, is that they are women. People who are unhappy with the sex they were dealt at birth have been very badly served by activists like Stonewall who used that facile slogan to hammer home their lucrative business of lobbying for the legalising of what has worked informally for occasional gender-benders. They have been so successful that people who would previously have worked out a satisfactory life style for themselves as anomalies now hurtle into drastic and irreversable changes, and upset the fabric of many other people's lives in the process. Meanwhile, Government bodies who have bought into the lobbying (literally - at an ongoing cost of £2,00 a year) are also hurtling into legislation which does not cover all effects and eventualities.

Oh and AN I appreciate that it can be difficult to present a different view to the dominant one on a thread so I appreciate your contributions even if I dont agree and am stroppy

I think that there will be a backlash. It is embryonic at the moment but I am sure that preserving our ancient freedoms, including that of speech will one day become the new ‘woke’ I hope that it will not swing too far in the other direction as unfortunately these things tend to do. For example, myself, a number of my friends, family and people I know are casting a jaundiced eye this year on all the LGBTQ Pride festivals which have become an annual summer event. Rather than seeing them as a way to celebrate acceptance and diversity, which is actually what is intended, they have been tainted (for me and many others) by the transgender question and by the antics of the politicised Stonewall and their disturbing denial of scientific facts, fawningly adopted by many organisations (looking at you, NHS) that WE pay for!An example of free speech being denied to the majority when the transgender numbers are vanishingly small and those in my life whom I have met are peaceful individuals wanting to live a happy life and who view this as a backward step in their quest for acceptance, which of course in a civilised society is beyond question.

Yes sorry Jane I include those issues too. I include all single sex spaces that could/are covered by the equality act.

I definitely think I’ve read your posts before AN, and your stance of “If I like it (changing rooms etc.) then it’s acceptable, but if I don’t (males cheating in female sport) then it’s unacceptable”, endorses that. I could be wrong, but that in a way makes it even worse.

Also care settings and female only personal care needs to be protected. I am actually aghast this is overlooked. Men gain access to vulnerable females in care in order to abuse them, it's sadly common. Abusive and predatory males could possibly identify as female in order to access vulnerable women's vagina's.

I dont know how to explain it any other way. You are not happy with transwomen in sport because they are men. No other group of women would you say you cant compete in female sport but you can go in female refuges for example. None.
I on the whole think toilets can be solved relatively easily either by mixed sex and single sex provision alongside each other or completely enclosed single cubicles.
It is refuges sport prisons and crime statistics that need to remain single sex. Men who understand women are entitled to boundaries understand this.
I dont really understand the pass thing. What difference to people think a pass will make to women who dont consent to sharing a space with men.