The loss of freedom of speech, of sidelining women and biology

How would that help women who dont want men in their spaces, those who have been raped, those who just want privacy from men, these spaces are segregated by sex not gender.

At the end of the day all this is being achieved through bullying. The organisations and businesses that bend to the will of trans activists do so out of fear. Fear of being sued, fear of mobs turning up outside disrupting retail outlets or damaging goods surreptitiously or intimidating customers who then go elsewhere. It’s old fashioned fear and intimidation tactics and if we, as women, decide to take them on by counter demonstrations we would be in danger of physical assault and very nasty verbal intimidation.

Their behaviour perfectly illustrates their toxic masculinity and before anyone jumps in accusing me of being transphobic- I’m not. I have no issue with trans and support their right to transition. I do have a big problem with the activists and boundary pushers who are misogynists at heart and a danger to women as our rights and those of our female descendants are being eroded and, as pointed out upthread, it’s getting more dystopian year on year.

If you start from the premise that women dont exist as a seperate category from men then you start from a position of misogyny. All of this follows from that belief. If you start from the premise that women are only allowed boundaries and consent when those boundaries are set by men then yep you start from a position of misogyny. If you think there is a way to live like women or dress like a woman then you start from a position of misogyny. If you tell people that you must live as a woman in order to access treatment you start from a position of misogyny. I could go on

Sajid Javid appears to be trying to take some action with the NHS, and the language they are now using in leaflets etc.

"Sajid Javid is prepared to wage war against gender-free language after he demanded the NHS stop dropping the word 'women' from its online health advice.

The minister, 52, has repeatedly said he does not agree with the health service removing the word from its ovarian cancer guidance webpage.

'Women' does not appear in the overview of the disease on the NHS.uk website, instead being replaced with the ambiguous and gender-neutral term 'anyone'.

Dr Karleen Gribble, a child health expert and professor at Western Sydney University, warned gender-free terms are 'less accessible' and could have deadly consequences.

'Many people do not even know if they have a cervix or prostate but they do understand men or women', she explained.

'The potential harm is people don’t respond to public health messaging. It might result in a fatal delay in seeking health care.'

It comes as it was revealed the word 'women' does not appear in the overview of the disease on the NHS.uk website.

Instead it states: 'Ovarian cancer affects the two small organs (ovaries) that store the eggs needed to make babies.

'Anyone with ovaries can get ovarian cancer, but it mostly affects those over 50.'"

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10925093/Sajid-Javid-orders-NHS-bosses-stop-dropping-women-online-advice-pages.html

That's the irony of the "gender fluid" argument though isn't it DiamondLily; the NHS, personal hygiene manufacturers etc are falling over themselves to remove the word WOMAN from their lexicon whilst keeping the word MAN. People who chest feed, menstruators, cervix havers - not "WOMEN". But we still have shaving products for "the closest shave a MAN can get". Oh no, there's no misogyny here.

In my view trans people should own their reality of being trans instead of claiming to be the opposite sex I completely agree FarNorth.

FarNorth

No-one has ever argued against separate provision for the 2 sexes, in the areas we talk about here. No-one is arguing about it now because everyone understands the reasons for it .

Yet as soon as a man says he's a woman, a lot of people are completely blinded by that statement and start saying he should be included as a woman.

It really doesn't make sense AussieNana to talk about a special category of men who can be accepted as women.

In my view, trans people should own their reality of being trans instead of claiming to be the opposite sex.

I disagree - I think it does make sense to talk about a special category of people - those who have transitioned to the other gender.

Not just men becoming women but women becoming men

They can own that, if you like (Ive not heard of anyone disowning it )- but it still leaves the practical issues of real life.

Services such as prisons refuges etc are not segregated by gender they are segregated by sex.

Not just men becoming women but women becoming men but men can't become women, and women can't become men which is why there are so many problems when it comes to services which are segregated by sex, not gender.

I suppose I should be clear about my views on gender. I see gender as rules imposed by society on how men and women should 'be', it is frequently deeply oppressive for both women and men.
So men shouldnt cry, women dont want to be scientists, etc etc, that's what gender means to me.

What you've described is gender Galaxy, society's expected norms for men and women.

Ye

Sorry my phone is mi I think the use of the words sex and gender interchangeably have muddied the waters.

My phone is misbehaving!

Here's a short article about the effects of the 'conversion therapy ban' in Canada, and what 'conversion therapy' actually is.

The Scottish Parliament is processing a Bill which is likely to have similar effects while the UK government has said it will not include 'trans conversion therapy' in its legislation.

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/types-of-therapy/

Some excellent posts on this page.

AussieNanna, I agree that there should be a separate category for transpeople. To me, this would make far more sense than the idea that 'transwomen are women'. It would mean that transpeople can live however they like, but not 'become' the other sex, as this is impossible.

We should continue to have areas segregated by sex where this is necessary for the safety of women (eg prisons, refuges and hospitals) and transpeople should access the ones appropriate to their sex, unless there is separate 'trans' provision. I also think it is important to ensure that such trans provision should not be created at the expense of provision for women (ie it should be funded separately and not be the more modern/better equipped alternative to women's provision that would advantage those who can access it by self identifying as female).

Where health is concerned, I also feel that steps should be taken to ensure that money is not syphoned off things like HRT and other gynaecological issues (eg endometriosis) to pay for transitioning hormones and surgery. I understand that this is currently happening.

This is not said because of 'transphobia', but because of feminism. Yet again, male 'women' are prioritised over actual women, and it is a disgrace.

I fully agree that anyone "trans" should have their own spaces, no problems with that at all. Not bothering anyone else doing that.

But, when it comes to advice/treatment, with things involving conditions that can only apply to biological women, it should be made clear that only biological women are affected, to avoid confusion - especially for people whose first language isn't English.

And, money should not be filtered off from historical "biological female" conditions to apply it elsewhere.

I find it astonishing that so many are having to give headspace, funding and time, to catering for scenarios that cannot exist, and to pander to a tiny (if loud), minority.?

Agreed, DL.

I came across this podcast of 3 young women talking about why some women are transphobic, and what needs to change.
(30 mins)

I hoped to educate myself but I found their logic quite illogical.

podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-sleepover-club-we-need-to-talk-about-terfs/id1451311975?i=1000478985470

Trans competitors will now have to wait longer to compete after transitioning between genders under the UCI's ruling, which doubled the period from 12 months to two years. The body also announced it is halving the maximum testosterone level permitted for trans women to compete in the female category.

Can I just check.
1. What proof is there that two years reduces male advantage any better than 12 months?
Does that mean that it’s OK for TW wanting to compete in female races to take performance enhancing drugs (that allow them to compete even though they are still biological males) but not for any other competitor to take drugs?
Maybe they could also perhaps take muscle weakening drugs and other drugs that reduce their male advantage?
Just been to a swimming gala where T’s were allowed to compete!???

Another outrageous display of trans activists bullying tactics to silence women in Bristol today. One was seen writing on the ground "after Colston TERFS are next" referring to the statue of Colston thrown into the river.

Another was carrying a placard "TERFS suck my d***". They arrive dressed in black and all wearing balaclavas, these trans activists who use mob rule, threats of violence and intimidation to silence women, who are too cowardly to show their faces .

Can you imagine the outcry if women & men were to demonstrate against trans people in that way?

Oh yes FarNorth; I can imagine it only too well. TRA have zero interest in "fair rights for all". They only want women - all women - silenced, subjugated and erased and are using violence and intimidation to achieve it.

Suzanne Moore today:

I am old and ugly enough to know male violence when I see it. So forget your slogans and your mantras or your inner spiritual gendered essence. I don’t have one as I am non-binary because I don’t accept that gender IS a binary.

Silence is lucrative but I will not be silent about men trying to stop women meeting, speaking, and thinking. For years this progressive misogyny has festered. In the name of “trans rights” you can now abuse women in public. You can wish them dead, call them fossils and dinosaurs and hope your Mum has something nice in the oven when you get home.

These two -bit radicals are full of rage at women. Some of them even are women and they just want to be “inclusive”. Their enemy are not those who harm and threaten trans people ie. violent men . No, their enemy is women. Women who think, who drink even (!) and who want to meet in single sex spaces. Or now any space at all. We are to be stopped . Raped. Threatened. Destroyed.

^Liberals sit on the fence doing the old “but there are extremists on both sides argument”. Really?
So, in the past few weeks while evidence mounts up that puberty blockers and surgery for young kids is not a panacea, that the Tavistock is at the centre of a medical scandal – see Janice Turner’s brilliant report in The Times:^

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/what-went-wrong-at-the-tavistock-clinic-for-trans-teenagers-v5cfcw77n

that even America is waking up to the harm being done in the name of “gender identity”, when various Sporting Bodies are starting to realise that lowering testosterone is not enough to make it fair for biological men to compete against biological women, when more and more detransitioners speak out about how unhappy they are, when sane individuals ask if it is right to medicalise and sterilise a generation of gay girls , something is shifting. All those who stood by and watched this happen or promoted it are nervy. When people are nervy, violence happens. Every survivor knows this deep down. Now we see that the so-called trans activists are now raging.

What proof is there that two years reduces male advantage any better than 12 months? absolutely none, since no scientific study has ever been carried out. As usual it's ideas plucked from the air. No amount of testosterone suppression will shrink the heart, lung capacity or bone length and density of a body that has had the advantage of a male puberty. The 'inverted triangle' of the male skeletal frame with it's advantageous positioning of the hip/leg angle wouldn't change even if testosterone was reduced to typical female levels.
Of course when transmen start cleaning up podium places against natal men in sports there might be more thought given to unfairness..........
I found a link to a Wiki page that listed notable transmen athletes. Wow, transmen taking podium places, brilliant......er no. They had been successful women who only transitioned after their sporting careers ended. One was an East German who had been systematically doped on steroids from the age of 16 in that time of state endorsed cheating. The steroids had made her start to develop male characteristics even while competing.