The loss of freedom of speech, of sidelining women and biology

Like Maya, you mean?

From what I know about Twitter with Trump etc. I'd hate to think it represented real life.

It seems more about trolls and attention seekers than anything else.

Both sides insult each other and call each other names. Both sides behave like extremists. And until that stops, we'll be no further forward.

Haven't you been paying attention volver?

There has been quite a bit of progress, some of it the result of legal cases.

"Both sides" may be insulting each other on twitter but that has little to do with real life, or with this GN thread.

I dont mean to be funny volver but we feel in general as if we are doing ok. The decisions with relation to sport and the cass review are really important changes that have occurred because of women like Maya, I cant really describe the importance of her legal case for women and those who are gender critical.

And, despite being told not to do it, by Sajid Javid, the NHS have removed the word "woman" from their advice links/sheets containing information about the menopause.

Sigh.

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-10957533/Now-NHS-quietly-removes-word-women-MENOPAUSE-page.html

A female rape survivor, attending a rape crisis/counselling service is suing them. Part of her argument is that male rape survivors are referred to male only groups, but female rape survivors can end up (as she did), expected to share a session with a TW/biological man::

"A woman who is suing a rape crisis charity says she felt unable to speak at a support group after a transgender woman began attending the same meeting.

"Sarah", who says she was raped in her 20s, stopped going to the sessions, saying she became uncomfortable sharing details of her past with the group.

She says the centre could have offered separate groups, telling the BBC: "I think my case is about women's rights."

The charity, Survivors' Network says it plans to vigorously defend the claim.

It says male victims of sexual violence are referred to neighbouring services, but trans women "are welcome into all of our women-only spaces".

However, Sarah's lawyers claim that by adopting a trans-inclusive approach - and not providing a session for women who were born female - the charity, in Brighton, failed to meet the needs of all sexual violence victims.

Sarah is bringing the case under the Equality Act, claiming indirect discrimination as well as victimisation and harassment.

She said: "I think women have sex-based rights and protections and these are under threat at the moment from trans activism."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61958346

Speaking as an interested amateur, it would be less extreme in my eyes if the following things weren't conflated.

Thinking that its extreme for a person to say that they are made to feel a second class citizen because they see a rainbow flag, is not the same as discounting the need to have female rape councillors and same sex spaces. People displaying rainbows are really not out to get the rest of us.

I've no doubt that we could now engage in some esoteric debate scattered liberally with jargon and TLAs, but honestly, I've not got the energy or the inclination.

You can hear what I've said, or you can not. Entirely up to you.

And those who are in the lgb community and actually those in the trans community who are saying that they feel uncomfortable, it's a fairly widely expressed view, obviously to keep the balance there are many within the lgbt community who disagree.

Yes I can tell you dont know her backstory.

Ok, I'm still here. Surprise!!

I don't mean that anybody here is racist. I don't mean that Forstater is racist.

I mean that there are parallels with people like Forstater who think they are being excluded for what they believe and see sights and insults everywhere. Based on the fact that they may or may not have been excluded under other circumstances. I've no idea of this person's back story so I don't know if she thinks she's been cancelled or what.

But complaining that a pride flag and "all welcome" sign makes her feel uncomfortable is just nuts. Sorry.

Sorry, that should have read 'By all means take apart what I actually say, but please don't tell me what I think.

I wish we had an edit button!

Crikey we have never heard that before. Yes women wanting private spaces without men is exactly the same as segregation by race. Women who have been raped and assaulted and need private spaces to deal with trauma, do they have chips on their shoulders for wanting spaces without men.

Yawn.

We've had that insult too often for it to resonate, I'm afraid.

I am comfortable enough with my anti-racism and general inclusivity to see it for the unimaginative bollox that it is.

By all means, take apart what I actually say. I am happy to answer the questions of anyone on any side of the debate to the best of my ability. I would, however, appreciate being given the same courtesy in return, rather than the 'I'm having my say and leaving' that so often happens on these threads.

Changed my mind. It is allowed.

I'll say this and then I will stay away.

Some of us see parallels here with those who objected strongly about non-whites being allowed into places, and thought that it took away their own rights. People who got all upset and thought they were being excluded when the world didn't behave they way they thought it should. People with chips on their shoulders.

Just saying.

It's a symbol that is now making some lesbian and gay people uncomfortable. So much so that some established an organisation that focuses solely on issues relating to the lgb community. It's a discussion that is causing real concern for many in that community.

Oxfam jumped the shark some time ago, when they withdrew a child's game that celebrated the achievements of women. The rationale was that it was trans exclusionary.

It's clear (to me, at least) that they are far from neutral in this debate.

volver

Its a sign in the window of Oxfam saying everyone is welcome.

I think we might be reading too much into this. ??️‍?

It’s a pride sign. I must have missed the objection.
I thought you were staying away?

Its a sign in the window of Oxfam saying everyone is welcome.

I think we might be reading too much into this. ??️‍?

Many many gay and lesbian people feel unwelcome and uncomfortable with stonewalls stance on the gender and sex issue.Those who are gender critical dont believe in an inner gender we think gender is something imposed by society that is oppressive for both men and women. We have been told again and again we are unwelcome 'dinosaurs' etc for holding those beliefs. Maya had to go to court to win the right to express those belief, of course she is going to be wary.

So now we're making things up. Who mentioned abuse? Oh yes, you. Fair enough. There is nothing rational about somebody who thinks that a sign saying "everybody welcome" is making some people into second class citizens. Is this what we've come to?

I generally stay away from these thread and I will again now.

Er that's an opinion volver it may not be the same as yours but theres nothing abusive about that view. Lots of women feel not welcome for their belief that sex is real, they have been told thay often enough.

Ah, well there's not a lot I can do about most of it, apart from comment on here about things I see as particularly egregious.

I think the issues themselves are more important than the manner in which some people tweet about them. I see here as different, as it's a discussion board, rather than a sounding board. On here, we can at least try to question people about why they think what they think, although many choose not to reply.

Perfectly rational debate.

But then it's from Twitter, so I guess that doesn't count.

Doodledog - The whole debate. Not just Gransnet.

Yes, there are zealots on both sides, but it is the TRAs who are resorting to violence and death threats out in the big wide world. Are you suggesting that gender critical posters on here are comparable with them?

Nobody on here is shouting or casting slurs on people based on their sexuality. It's hardly fair to compare threads on here to Twitter, if that's what you are doing.

It's difficult to tell from the tone of your posts (*volver*) whether they are general comments on the state of the 'debate' (where debate is allowed), or about threads on Gransnet, which makes it difficult to respond.

volver

On Twitter this morning, Tom Daley is being called a parasite, misogynist, contemptuous of women, "womb renter", having a hissy fit and being told to go and knit himself a blanket and stay in his own lane.

What's in the title of this thread again? Oh yes. ^The loss of freedom of speech...^

Tom Daley hasn’t lost freedom of speech, even on Twitter if that’s what you base your decisions on.
I might not like the terms that have been used, any more than I like the terms used about women, but allowing TERFS freedom of speech and the right to use those terms is an ongoing issue.
He’s been allowed the freedom to endorse his approval of cheating and others have been allowed to express their feelings about his endorsement. Why is one right and the other wrong?
If he’s being accused of all the things you quote from Twitter, he’s at liberty to refute those accusations.
Now females . . . They are being denied the freedom to use terms to which they are entitled-mother, breast feeding, woman meaning only AHF.