Our bloated NHS - it’s beyond ridiculous now.

*That’s what used to happen, pretty much Lido.
Seems okay to me now too.

Why is everything so bluddy complicated (and expensive) nowadays? *

Because nowadays we want to do things better.
Because we want to treat people fairly nowadays.
Because we realise that hasn't always been the case.
Because we've learned from our mistakes and evolved.

Goodness I must be improving. I’ve gone up from ‘utter tripe’ to ‘arrant nonsense’. All in one day too!

The NHS
One point that has hardly been touched on is that Health is devolved as is social care.

But here’s the rub Lido. After all this diversity & inclusivity and monitoring and engaging - things aren’t any better.

Kindness, civility and yes - actually caring about the patients you are in contact with, works. I know this much is true.

Glorianny, I am well aware of the difference between my Dr being contracted to the NHS and the Hospital Trusts. However, my Hospital in Hampshire cannot read my records from my Hospital in West Sussex...that is recent too. There is nothing "National" about our NHS, it is a complete misnomer.

Urmstongran

Probably sorts out the time wasters sodapop. I read an article a few months ago about some regulars with mental health issues who frequently ring 999. They were well known to the call handlers.

MadeInYorkshire I am so sorry to hear about your daughter. What a distressing situation for you all. There is still a mountain to climb when it comes to supporting people with mental health issues as you know.

I worked in HR and people management for 30 years before I retired and retrained as a gardener.

For the last 20 years of my HR career I worked as a consultant devising programmes to ensure organisation success, savings and where appropriate, profit. I did this based entirely on the factors I have listed above. I was employed across a wide range of sectors. In every single case staff satisfaction, ease of recruitment, productivity, customer satisfaction and the bottom line improved. Reticent director, managers and employees were won over as they saw results from the methods you dismiss.

My job was to ensure the organisation could attract the most able and suited employees, ensure they knew exactly what their job was and how to deliver the task in hand with passion and care.

Good employees only occur by accident using the Bingo and Uniform method.

We are on the same page - you just don't know how to achieve the outcome you want. I do and so do the NHS and their diversity managers.

This is a fascinating article showing how the NHS were using diversity to recruit and training to engage in the 1950s. None of this is new.

www.nursingtimes.net/news/history-of-nursing/a-history-of-nursing-in-britain-the-1950s-26-08-2021/

Ah. I’ve touched a nerve it seems Lido. When I asked at the start of the thread if you were an NHS manager (you seemed so very keen on them) yet you told me you were a gardener ‘just interested in data/facts’ (I think - I haven’t scrolled back). Now you reveal yourself more fully.

Look - You & I both have worked in admin & clerical within the NHS for a great many years. I’m sure we’d like to see the best people in place for the job.

Yet surely, as you’ve also read a lot of anecdotal poor outcomes on this thread, you can agree by some smidgeon that the vast involvement by HR nowadays doesn’t particularly generate the desired, well intentioned, end result.

Perhaps we just have to courteously agree to disagree on the methodology (and vast expense)?

Firstly - Lido has never said she worked for the NHS.

Second, - thinking HR is "admin and clerical" just shows us what you really know.

Like Mr Johnson, you're not so hot on the detail.

My politeness goes some way to making up for my lack of intellect though I think.

was employed across a wide range of sectors
?

Bet there were occasions in all those years.

I was a gardener before I retired and I have never been a manager in the NHS. The RHS perhaps, but never the NHS.

In my initial posts I merely gave facts which contradicted your quote from The Telegraph.

Anecdotal poor outcomes are just that. They are not fact.

My career experience and a lifetime of study in the field demonstrates measurably that HR involvement does generate the result the business desires.

We will have to disagree Urmstongran and I wish I had followed Casdon's advice a few posts back but I hoped I might be able to invite you to open your mind a little.

Urmstongran

Just read the article in the link you posted growstuff.

About the authors
Prof. Ian Kirkpatrick is professor of public management at the University of York.

Prof. Becky Malby is professor of health systems innovation at London South Bank University.

?? My underlining.
They obviously think more managers are a good idea!

It would be interesting to read what the hospital consultants and nurses think on the subject.

Sometimes you write the weirdest posts Urmstongran. So both the people writing the report were experts in the field of the report.

What do you want them to be experts in - goat keeping?

Urmstongran

My politeness goes some way to making up for my lack of intellect though I think.

You think so?

Now, I really need to take my own advice.

DaisyAnne

Urmstongran

Just read the article in the link you posted growstuff.

About the authors
Prof. Ian Kirkpatrick is professor of public management at the University of York.

Prof. Becky Malby is professor of health systems innovation at London South Bank University.

?? My underlining.
They obviously think more managers are a good idea!

It would be interesting to read what the hospital consultants and nurses think on the subject.

Sometimes you write the weirdest posts Urmstongran. So both the people writing the report were experts in the field of the report.

What do you want them to be experts in - goat keeping?

Haha! What I was trying to convey is that these 2 authors are not unbiased in their appreciation in the art of promulgating more managers. It’s in their interests after all. They’re not going to say ‘whoa, now hold on - perhaps this has been over promoted these last few years’ are they?

Anecdotal evidence from reliable and known sources is fact Lido. Do you think these posters have been making up their tales of woe?

And the RHS? Isn’t that the organisation where memberships have been ditched pretty robustly lately due to perceived ‘wokeness’? It was in many newspapers a few months ago. All to do with ‘diversity’? I rest my case.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Urmstongran

DaisyAnne

Urmstongran

Just read the article in the link you posted growstuff.

About the authors
Prof. Ian Kirkpatrick is professor of public management at the University of York.

Prof. Becky Malby is professor of health systems innovation at London South Bank University.

?? My underlining.
They obviously think more managers are a good idea!

It would be interesting to read what the hospital consultants and nurses think on the subject.

Sometimes you write the weirdest posts Urmstongran. So both the people writing the report were experts in the field of the report.

What do you want them to be experts in - goat keeping?

Haha! What I was trying to convey is that these 2 authors are not unbiased in their appreciation in the art of promulgating more managers. It’s in their interests after all. They’re not going to say ‘whoa, now hold on - perhaps this has been over promoted these last few years’ are they?

Do you think they lied about their statistics?

Why is it in more managers? It doesn't matter to them how many managers there are. They're not NHS managers and don't even work for the NHS.

icanhandthemback

*Glorianny*, I am well aware of the difference between my Dr being contracted to the NHS and the Hospital Trusts. However, my Hospital in Hampshire cannot read my records from my Hospital in West Sussex...that is recent too. There is nothing "National" about our NHS, it is a complete misnomer.

That's interesting but may not be true. I know someone who works as a consultant in the NHS when she wanted records for personal treatment transferred from one hospital to another she was told it couldn't be done. She then explained exactly how it could be done and who she was and it was done very quickly. I fully acknowledge that there are people working for the NHS who seem to think part of their job is to make it as mystical and incomprehensible to the patient as possible but get someone on the case who they respect and it is amazing how things change.

I’m allowed to have a different opinion DaisyAnne. There is no slur. Just that I disagree with the usefulness of all this within the NHS. Patients are not happy these days with aspects of the NHS and all the HR spin and tick boxing isn’t going to make them like how it’s gone.

It's not the only report I've read which shows that the NHS is under-managed compared with the average big organisation.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9107479/Royal-Horticultural-Society-dragged-culture-wars.html

So much for ‘inclusivity’.

Glorianny

icanhandthemback

Glorianny, I am well aware of the difference between my Dr being contracted to the NHS and the Hospital Trusts. However, my Hospital in Hampshire cannot read my records from my Hospital in West Sussex...that is recent too. There is nothing "National" about our NHS, it is a complete misnomer.

That's interesting but may not be true. I know someone who works as a consultant in the NHS when she wanted records for personal treatment transferred from one hospital to another she was told it couldn't be done. She then explained exactly how it could be done and who she was and it was done very quickly. I fully acknowledge that there are people working for the NHS who seem to think part of their job is to make it as mystical and incomprehensible to the patient as possible but get someone on the case who they respect and it is amazing how things change.

It's not new. Both my children were born in hospitals which wasn't my "catchment" hospital, although antenatal care was provided by the local health authority. When I went into hospital to have my babies, I was given a paper copy of my complete medical record to show the hospital.

Even now, access to patient records isn't uniform across the country. My partner has online access to all his test result, but I don't. When I asked why not, I was told that my GP practice had chosen not to give patients access. My NHS app doesn't have any record of my flu jab and it took weeks for my third Covid vaccine to show up.

One thing I have noticed that Consultants here at least, send letters to the patient as well as the GP about any results. Communication seems better.
Even if the hospital computer system doesn't always seem to communicate with the GP's system, much to the frustration of some staff recently.