Finland & Sweden have formally applied to join NATO this morning.

The point is that for many years Russia has quite successfully operated both cyber attacks and social media manipulation.

Cyber threats and social media manipulation are different things.

Cyber attacks usually mean denial of service, or something like that. So they bring networks down for instance, or block access to important sites like bank sites. There are definitely ways to intercept that so I should think the UK authorities are thinking about how to protect us against that.

Cyber threats, or manipulation of social media have been used by Russia, to destabilise the west.
Trump had links with Russia. I don’t find it hard to believe the KGB did have Bad Stuff they used to manipulate Trump, or they bailed him out financially - or both. Trump abs honesty, dignity, reliability never appeared in the same room
How did London become londongrad. How did the Conservative party get so much funding from Russia?
I’m with GSM in concluding there’s more than military might at play here

The threat of cyber attacks has never materialized, the tension over Ukraine has been high and I would have expected some disruption, so I presume they have been countered, if indeed they ever existed.

2016 not 2916

We have no idea of what might happen in 2916 or even whether planet earth might in 2916 be populated by our descendants or even populated at all?

Germanshepherdsmum

He doesn’t necessarily need military resources. Cyber attacks have been threatened.

Putin is a past master at cyber attacks.

Why else would the UK have voted leave in the fraudulent referendum of 2016?

Why else would the most guillible Americans have voted for Trump in 2916?

Why would Boris Johnson ever become UK PM ?

Whitewavemark2

I am pretty relaxed about it tbh.

Putin simply hasn’t the resources to extend his war. His army is poorly prepared, trained and resourced, and I suspect that there are a lot of serious questions being asked in Russia.

If he is terminally ill as is being suggested, then I have no doubt that the Kremlin officials are as busy on manoeuvres inside the Kremlin as they are in Ukraine.

Frankly Putin only has himself to blame over the sudden expansion of NATO, and it was poor strategy on his part that brought this about.

Except he still has nuclear weapons. And I agree 'who would be so crazy?' But we were saying the same thing right up until the minute he invaded Ukraine.

Also the term 'tactical' or 'battlefield' nuclear weapons is bandied around by the media to make it sound like 'cuddly nuclear weapons'.

These can be many times more destructive than the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

MaizieD
You ask who is supplying Russia
some say it’s North Korea.

It does nothing to reduce tension although I understand why they are doing it, I’m sure it surprised Putin. Because Ukraine is a much tougher opponent than expected it will not attack Finland, which of course is quite close to St Petersburg. What Putin’s reaction will be is uncertain, NATO is sending more heavier weapons to Ukraine increasing Russian casualties, will they hit back in kind. Dangerous times!.

NATO takes a year to join in normal circumstances, wether a “fast track “ membership process is used we will see, it would be good.

Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are all in NATO.

Sweden doesn't even have a border with Russia.

Finland's and Sweden's decision to join Nato is hardly surprising. The countries have discussed the matter for many years. They have also prepared for crisis.

When I visited my family in Sweden in 2018 a pamphlet was delivered to all households: ”Om krisen eller kriget kommer” (=If crisis or war comes). Between 1943 and 1991 a pamphlet ”Om kriget kommer” (=If war comes) was delivered on a regular basis. It contained information about how to act if war was declared. During the years of strong economic growth (1950s-1970s) Sweden invested in civil defense and a plan to prepare the population for an eventual invasion. In 1991 the distribution of the pamplet stopped. However, in 2018 it was renewed.

I wish I had your confidence Maizie.

Germanshepherdsmum

He doesn’t necessarily need military resources. Cyber attacks have been threatened.

I think the West has resources to counter that.

Iam64

Putin’s invasion of Ukraine and his threats to countries that consider joining NATO make Finland feel joining is essential.

Placating him and suggesting Finland and Sweden shouldn’t join because it will be seen asa threat to Russia reminds me of the advice to victims of domestic abuse or rape. They’re often told, Don’t wind him up, don’t wear provocative clothing,keep quiet, comply with his demands otherwise he might lose his temper

I agree - I am just suggesting that their actions in applying to join will be seen by Putin as justification for his invasion of Ukraine, and that will feed more propaganda in Russia and sympathetic countries.

I have no idea what the answer is, but it is terrifying to see the world being held to ransom by one power crazy nutter.

I ran an arts/music festival at the weekend and my choir sang the Ukranian national anthem - a splendid tune, by the way. A young Ukranian refugee woman who is with a host family locally was in the audience and she was very moved by it and so grateful for this affirmation that they are not forgotten.

He doesn’t necessarily need military resources. Cyber attacks have been threatened.

I am pretty relaxed about it tbh.

Putin simply hasn’t the resources to extend his war. His army is poorly prepared, trained and resourced, and I suspect that there are a lot of serious questions being asked in Russia.

If he is terminally ill as is being suggested, then I have no doubt that the Kremlin officials are as busy on manoeuvres inside the Kremlin as they are in Ukraine.

Frankly Putin only has himself to blame over the sudden expansion of NATO, and it was poor strategy on his part that brought this about.

Iam64

Putin’s invasion of Ukraine and his threats to countries that consider joining NATO make Finland feel joining is essential.

Placating him and suggesting Finland and Sweden shouldn’t join because it will be seen asa threat to Russia reminds me of the advice to victims of domestic abuse or rape. They’re often told, Don’t wind him up, don’t wear provocative clothing,keep quiet, comply with his demands otherwise he might lose his temper

Absolutely Iam64. I’m not surprised that Finland and Sweden feel that they should now join NATO.

Putin only understands strength. I don’t understand why I’m not more afraid of the current situation. I guess it’s too awful to comprehend fully.

Finland has been an independent country for over a hundred years and having been attacked by Russia during that time, is very aware of the ongoing threat.

Finland has a large military force and a well trained territorial force. All public buildings and many homes are built with cellars for use as bomb shelters.

Russia has promised to respect Finland's neutrality, which meant that Finland had no need to join NATO, until Putin broke his promise to respect Ukraine's neutrality .

volver

Finland was historically part of Russia. They have been neutral for years and have avoided aligning themselves with anyone. They have an 800 mile long border with Russia. Putin has form now for invading countries he'd like to have back in the USSR. If I was Finnish, if be joining NATO too, and if Putin complains, well he knows who to blame.

Anyway, Turkey may well block it.

From what I've been reading over the course of the Ukraine invasion I doubt that Putin has any thoughts of invading Finland in the near future. His forces are stretched in Ukraine, he is using young and poorly trained conscripts mainly as cannon fodder and to bulk up the numbers on the ground. It is suspected that he daren't call for mobilisation of his remaining army because firstly he hasn't actually declared war (it's still a 'special operation' and secondly, mobilised troops would have to concentrate through Moscow and he may fear an attempt a t a military coup as the army can't be particularly pleased with him at the moment.

He must be painfully aware of just what a paper tiger his army has turned out to be...

Additionally his 'conventional' weaponry is old and poorly maintained as a result of corruption at many levels. There is a question over his ability to increase weapons production because sanctions are depriving him of western made components which he needs. Is he being supplied from elsewhere,? It doesn't look likely. China is standing back from him and where else could he turn?

He is old (ish), and by many accounts, probably terminally ill. He doesn't have much time to prepare to be fighting in more than one European theatre.

He has apparently affected indifference to Sweden and Finland's plans to join NATO.

So I don't think they are in any particular danger of being invaded. OTOH it sends a 'Don't even try' message...

Nor do I think we're on the verge of WW3 (not relevant to the quoted post I know. Just my opinion)

Putin’s invasion of Ukraine and his threats to countries that consider joining NATO make Finland feel joining is essential.

Placating him and suggesting Finland and Sweden shouldn’t join because it will be seen asa threat to Russia reminds me of the advice to victims of domestic abuse or rape. They’re often told, Don’t wind him up, don’t wear provocative clothing,keep quiet, comply with his demands otherwise he might lose his temper

volver I hope you are correct, but as we all know unbiased/neutral news and information is unavailable for the majority of Russian citizens.

Russia's complaints about NATO expanding are a pretext, as I'm sure we all know. If Sweden and Finland eventually join, then I'm sure Putin will use that to convince the Russian people that the West are out to get them. But perhaps the Russian people will understand that Sweden hasn't been in a war for 2 centuries, so for them to apply to join NATO is a big deal and was by no means a direction of travel they were bound to take. And they only decided to apply after their glorious leader decided to invade a neutral country.

Just to push this a bit further, as far as I'm aware RU has never complained about Norway's membership of NATO and it is Norway that has a border with Russia, not Sweden.

But also the future NATO/EU relations will be more interesting, it's now only Austria, Ireland, Malta and Cyprus who are in the EU but not in NATO.

Petera

GrannyGravy13

We have close friends in Sweden, and they are extremely jittery

I was talking to a Finnish friend about this and, while nervous, she fully supports it and thinks the majority of her compatriots feel the same way.

Her take is that SE/FI have aligned so much with NATO that the only thing missing is Article 5. And while agreeing that Article 5 is a big deal, she thinks that Putin will make noises but not see it in the same way as UA potentially joining.

But, as she says herself, predicting Putin is a very inexact science. But doing nothing is a much a choice as doing something.

They haven’t said that they do not support the application, just that they are concerned.