I think flat faced dogs should be banned

I remember those wandering dog days.....also the common and frequent practice of drowning unwanted puppies in a bucket of warm water.

?

Yes, and the piles of poo on every street corner.

Doodledog

MissAdventure

It should be illegal to own them, full stop.
Never mind insurance, what about quality of life for the dog?

And what would you do with the existing dogs if it were illegal to own them?

Insurance is not the solution, but at least the dogs would be protected until the breathing problems could be bred out. A surprising number of owners don't have insurance and the dogs have to be destroyed or live with the conditions.

It's not just brachycephalic dogs that have problems. Since dogs have had to be chipped, and people can be fined for letting them roam, there are far fewer 'mongrels' - pretty much all pet dogs are pedigree now, so problems are bred into them. I agree that Frenchies are at the top of the scale for problems, but spaniels, labradors and many other breeds have issues too. I'm not sure what the answer is, as it's unlikely that we will go back to the days of seeing dogs wandering the streets to 'meet' other ones and produce the crossbreeds that used to represent most family pets. They just don't exist in any numbers now. Rescue centres make it so difficult to get dogs, too, and not everyone is able to take on a dog with problems caused by previous owners. It's a mess, really.

I remember those wandering dog days.....also the common and frequent practice of drowning unwanted puppies in a bucket of warm water.

HettyBetty

I will be in a minority here but I don't think we have the right to breed and own animals for our amusement.

Animals should exist in their wild state or not at all. Humans have done them so much damage, we should hang our heads in shame.

Yes, because that has worked well for other animals.

HettyBetty

I will be in a minority here but I don't think we have the right to breed and own animals for our amusement.

Animals should exist in their wild state or not at all. Humans have done them so much damage, we should hang our heads in shame.

Wolves/Dogs chose to live with man because they realised they would benefit from it. What you’re wishing for is for them to not exist at all. Which is the basis of what PETA believes I think.

Have to agree with everything GSM says. The KC sets the standards and it’s easy to look at Victorian pictures of various breeds and see how that standard has been changed. My late DH was on the KC committee for (proper) working dogs where ability was more important than appearance.

What do you think about guide dogs HettyBetty. They are obviously not owned for amusement but they have to be bred. I have never owned a pet for amusement, nor have I ever bought one.

I will be in a minority here but I don't think we have the right to breed and own animals for our amusement.

Animals should exist in their wild state or not at all. Humans have done them so much damage, we should hang our heads in shame.

I googled dogs fir people with allergies and a breed called the Xolo came up. It’s a Mexican hairless dog and quite fascinating. Into an ancient breed that lived with tribes; multifunctional. The article said that if all dogs just became mongrels and bred with each other they would eventually look like Xolos albeit ( I assume) with hair. The tribes revered them as they were thought to take you to the afterlife. The breeder in the video said potential owners had to be vetted very carefully as the dogs virtually know not just what you’re thinking but what you’re going to think and are very wilful. But what I’m trying to say is the Xolo is the complete opposite of Frenchies although they did introduce Min Pins at one time (and another breed but I forget what it was) .

It's immoral to breed dogs that are inevitably going to suffer due to the breeder's choice of traits. It is aso immoral to buy dogs from breeders who breed such animals.

Flat faces(i.e. deformed jaws), pop eyes, elongated spines, bad hip joints, heart diseases, blindness and deafness are all due to immoral breeding of animals. Why can such breeders still work within the law?

. . . the qualifying factor for most badly behaved Doodles is an owner who doesn't train consistently.

Absolutely. And this is true of absolutely any type of dog.

Like Doodle and Iam, my last dog was a Doodle and was absolutely the best dog I have ever had. He had 14 years with us, only ever saw a vet for vaccinations, was the most chilled boy and yes, he did moult. He was gentle around cats, children and chickens. Over the years I've had Border Collies, a Great Dane, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels and mongrels. The Doodle was absolutely, hands down, the easiest. I know lots of people with Doodles of all descriptions and the qualifying factor for most badly behaved Doodles is an owner who doesn't train consistently.

I do a lot of walking on the streets and in the park - I immediately know if one of these dogs is behind me as you can hear that terrible breathing.

I've noticed an increase in British bulldogs - some of them are gross, wheezing and snuffling and with such wide barrel-shaped bodies that they can barely walk.

A couple of years back I heard a vet on the radio say he wanted to ban further breeding, saying that when these pets are anaesthetized and intubated their gums instantly turn pink, from black, simply because they're getting enough oxygen!

For a moment there I thought you were talking about one of your politicians. I am sure there are a few flat faced dogs amongst them who should probably be banned.

I agree, BlueBelle that the prices for puppies is astronomical. That encourages owners to get their money back by breeding their pets without experience or knowledge, which adds to the problems.

Oscar is probably a case in point. My daughter researched how to avoid puppy farms, saw the mum with the pups, visited more than once etc, but he still had serious health issues. I would prefer regulation to banning, though, as I don’t see how we can ban all dogs with built in problems. Would you ban Labradors, for instance? They have hip and other issues because of over-breeding.

Like Iam, our best dog was a Labradoodle (hence my name ). Far from being hyperactive or neurotic, he was really chilled - we used to say he was a Zen dog). There are so many generalisations on this thread, and when you (generic, not you personally) are talking about much loved pets people are going to get defensive when they are told they are cruel and irresponsible.

I suspect that regulation will come in soon, which I will support; but I will not support banning breeds. I don’t think that will happen anyway, though - it would open a massive can of worms.

If all breeders bred to the Breed Standard as accepted worldwide there would not be the problems there are. Unfortunately some want to forget the standard and breed extremes. Many of these problems come from non Kennel Club "breeders" who are only about making money. There is no check on what they are breeding. If judges in the show ring award the extreme version of any breed then they are part of the problem.

Doodledogs can suffer because they look like Disney designed them. The myths include, they don’t shed, they’re easy to train, they’re great with children, they’re always healthier than pedigrees, to name but a few.
The main concern I have is the huge increase in dog ownership, triggered by lockdown. The Doodle and other breed charities are struggling to manage the number of dogs relinquished. Add to that the fact many came from first time dog owners with little idea how to look after them.

I’m not sure how to achieve it but, we do need more regulation on breeding. Commercial and hobby breeders put any poodle to any spaniel or lab and sell the puppies for three times what reputable breeders ask. Hobby breeders often don’t understand you should health check the previous 5 generations as well as the parent dogs to ensure breed specific health problems are minimised or ruled out. These puppy farms aka small commercial breeders don’t care about such things. Sadly many prospective owners have no idea, do no research before seeing a cuddly puppy and bringing it home

One of the best dogs I ever shared my life with was a labradoodle. I was her 4th owner by 5 months of age. She she’d fur, was highly intelligent but had the standard poodle independence so I’d to work to convince her I was running the show. She taught me more about training a dog with a high prey urge than I ever thought I’d need to know. Doodles- not for the faint hearted.

As well as regulating breeders, which shouldn’t be impossible, we need a better educated public. Dogs need owners who understand their breed, their needs. All owners should commit to training groups, not just puppy ‘socialisation’.

I wasn’t trying to insult you doodle I m sure your family did your research and are happy with your little dog and of course you love it with health problems and all but so many people don’t do research they hear about this wonderful new breed with a cute name and just like fashion it grows and grows so ‘everyone’ has to have a doodle dog and thousands of pounds start changing hands so they are breed to be smaller, curlier, flatter
It’s simply fashion

Where to get a mongrel apart from a rescue centre? This will probably be very difficult as everyone is selling mongrels under a fancy name for lots of money ?
The huge money and breeders greed has changed dog owning
My last beautiful kind dog was a ‘mistake’ and bought for a big bag of sweets for their kids, those days obviously long gone

Can you believe the amount of money that is changing hands thousands per dog and we are in the middle of people not having enough money to eat or pay for electricity and the more we buy the more will be bred it has to stop

I had a conversation with our vet over crossbreeds. I thought naively that any genetic issues would be “bred out” of crossbreeds, and the issue solved.

Not so, in fact they can end up with both breeds issues, plus they apparently often have behavioural problems.

Her opinion was that cross breeds are produced purely for their looks, zero thought has been given to the health of the dogs and their behaviour traits.

I do think you have a responsibility as a potential owner of any animal to ensure that the breeder is breeding healthy animals, and so refuse to buy any animal with genetic issues due entirely to breeding.

Many breeds have issues.

So an example would be Cairn Terriers. They have liver shunt issues.

So we have a cairn and our research before deciding showed what genetic issues cairn may have. I asked for a vet certificate from the breeder to ensure that he was clear of this issue.

Customers/potential owners are just as responsible for the animals dreadful suffering if they continue to buy these dogs.

Agreed, ichtb. It's really insulting to think that people are stupid enough to be taken in by any of this. Anyone knowing anything about dogs knows what they are buying, and responsible newcomers to dog ownership will do their research.

MissA

DillytheGardener, again, it comes down to knowing what you are doing. If you buy a first generation crossbreed you won't get a non-allergenic coat. If, OTOH, you go for a 3rd gen or higher, and if you have the sense to see the parents and choose the puppy carefully, then the chances are very strong that you will.

The nature/nurture debate around temperament is as fraught with dogs as it is with people. There are no guarantees there either, whether you get a so-called 'pure-bred', a cross or a mongrel, and in any case much comes down to the owner and how the dog is trained.

Can you suggest where a potential dog owner could go to get a mongrel? Someone who doesn't want a rescue dog, but a puppy that they can train themselves, and who doesn't come with the potential to have behaviour problems caused by irresponsible owners, that is? If you can, I will happily pass this information to my son and DIL, who are considering dog ownership and are still at the beginning of the research stage of their search.

Crossbreeds are a deliberate breeding of 2 breeds. Mongrels are an unknown mix of breeds. Crossbreeds are capable of having a written heritage if they are bred by 2 pedigrees whereas you couldn't do that with a mongrel. There is a huge difference and it is only snobbery that makes people decry a crossbreed with a name they deem ridiculous. As with all things, people pay their money and take their choice. If you choose to fall into the trap of paying the highest price for a dog where you don't know its heritage, then more fool you.

The man who first bred the doodle called it a Frankenstein breed and regretted ever breeding it.
I have many, many friends with versions of this breed, doodle, cavapoo etc and I hate to say it but I can’t bear them. Destructive, yappy, bad mannered, zero recall, and one friends wife bought because of the ‘hypo allergenic’ claim which turns out to be rubbish. As their are no breed standards as they are just mongrels, you might get a puppy that takes after the poodle or the spaniel/Labrador etc which are not hypoallergenic.

Same with temperament, two working dogs bred together creates a dog with the worst of both breeds in health and temperament , and far to much for the owners I know and see at the park that can’t control their hyper crazed dogs. I don’t know how many times I’ve had them jump on me, run out at me as they aren’t lead trained etc. A family member is a dog trainer and won’t take on any doodle type breed which says it all really. He says the owners sadly are as annoying as the dogs. ?
They seem to attract first time dogs owners that go for the look rather than suitability to the owners lifestyle and experience.
I disagree with a poster who said there isn’t any harm in dogs having brachycephalic surgery, having seen a friends frenchie have this surgery I was shocked it is legal to breed dogs that require surgery for the fundamental need to breathe.
Rant over. My family are all very doggie and this issue winds me up.

pretty much all pet dogs are pedigree now

I'm horrified. I've had a few dogs, all collie crossed with something else and all lovely dogs.

Bluddy Norah
Just when I'd posted my succinct little reply

Yes, all just dogs, but some are overbred to the extent that it impacts their health.