Speaking the truth about brexit

volver

One thing I should have mentioned about where I worked. The building had a big plaque in reception saying something like "Built with EU Funding". Those who worked there, from the MD to the cleaning ladies, knew they had the EU to thank for their workplace.

I seem to give people more credit than others do. People I know could see that their lives were improved by the EU and didn't want out. They weren't thinking that they'd been left behind while the cognoscenti reaped the rewards of Polish delis. Not even the cleaning ladies working 15 hours a day at 3 jobs thought that.

Maybe all those intelligent people who thought leaving was a good idea had their own reasons for thinking that. Maybe they knew the functions and so on. But they clearly didn't have much in the way of foresight or critical thinking skills.

They were told it would be a disaster, and it is.

Yes volver, I've seen similar plaques indicating EU funding. It's quite possible some of the cleaning ladies (no cleaning men?) thought - as some Brexiters did - that we should have control of our own money, decide where it's spent, and not rely on "hand-outs" from the EU who were just giving us back some of our "own" money. That's the response I got from more than one Brexiter when talking about regional development and funding. Of course, it's not impossible that the MD thought along similar lines, who knows...

You say it's not the Remainers' job to champion / fight for / 'deal with', the plight of the dispossessed / 'left-behinds' - it's the government's. It's also the job of government to help refugees / immigrants, the disabled, the homeless, the mentally ill, etc. The dire response of government(s) to effectively solve the problems and help those in these groups has resulted in us - society - forming pressure groups, charities etc, to advocate on their behalf. So why not include those at the bottom of the pile (so to speak)? There's been enough publicity over the decades highlighting the plight of some of the most impoverished living in industrial wastelands - TV programmes ("Auf Wiedersehen, Pet" back in the 80s, as a starter), and so many editorials in the media, over the decades.

Remainers I know are prepared to tackle successive Tory government's dismal responses to the problems they've largely created themselves for the above demographics - why exclude those whose lives have been diminished (to put it mildly) similarly?

Personally, I credit everyone with a level of intelligence, either 'native' or academic - or both, and don't start from the premise that a Brexiter is automatically an uneducated know-nothing. Clearly though, some of the reasons given - and they've sometimes been given 'on-air' - for abandoning our membership are quite obviously based on inaccurate information; lies from vested-interest bodies / groups - not to mention the government itself.

The facts, the figures, are all there for anyone to research. So why - as you pointed out - would anyone vote to make themselves worse off?

Why indeed? But they did. As someone semi-retired (and working for myself) pre-Referendum, I had all the time in the world to research the required information, not that I had any intention of voting other than Remain, but needed to understand the functioning of the EU in detail if I was to parlez with others. I had the luxury of time that a lot of people - especially those working long hours - just don't have. This doesn't signify anything much other than that Remainers - supposedly knowledgeably armed with all the facts and figures relating to the EU, did a pretty poor job trying to convince the frazzled, overworked (probably under-paid) of the EU benefits, to them and the wider community. Some exploited, overworked, underpaid Brexiters had genuine grievances - but laid them at the wrong door - and what did many Remainers do, other than (often) sneeringly put them down? De-industrialisation was a huge economic and cultural change after Thatcher; knowledge and skills have been diminished - destroyed - and the 'victims' have been side-lined ever since. Why was this demographic not as important as the others I've highlighted above?

Dinahmo

Growstuff I think that you are digging yourself a big hole. My OH's grandfather was an Alderman and Sherriff of Nottingham in the 50s. His father was coal miner and when a boy he picked potatoes in the fields during holidays etc.

As an adult he started a co-operative soft drinks factory and was involved in workers' education.

He could not have become Sherrif if he was not an educated person. There will be many GNers who will have similar stories (although maybe not Sherrifs of Nottingham)

No, I haven't been digging a hole for anyone. I have been stating a fact. Anecdotes are not the same as looking at a whole population and averages and trends, as volver has explained.

One thing I should have mentioned about where I worked. The building had a big plaque in reception saying something like "Built with EU Funding". Those who worked there, from the MD to the cleaning ladies, knew they had the EU to thank for their workplace.

I seem to give people more credit than others do. People I know could see that their lives were improved by the EU and didn't want out. They weren't thinking that they'd been left behind while the cognoscenti reaped the rewards of Polish delis. Not even the cleaning ladies working 15 hours a day at 3 jobs thought that.

Maybe all those intelligent people who thought leaving was a good idea had their own reasons for thinking that. Maybe they knew the functions and so on. But they clearly didn't have much in the way of foresight or critical thinking skills.

They were told it would be a disaster, and it is.

volver

Saying “we failed” is even worse than saying that the less well educated voted for Brexit. Its patronising and its paternalistic. The Government failed, over and over again.

Various studies have indicated that the less well educated did vote for Brexit, some mixing up domestic politics with those of the EU. Which of course doesn't mean that all Brexit voters are uneducated, I've debated with very intelligent Leavers who had clear reasons for wanting us to Brexit. And some of them knew more about how the EU functions than I do - because they were directly affected.

But if the gains and the prosperity mainly go to the affluent and the skilled, then many of the rest will be left behind, and they will challenge the whole notion of our membership.

Yes, it's the government's job to help the 'left behind' - and they clearly had no intention of doing it. And we knew that.

Good post Dickens

Well, I fear we all failed, a bit, in our own ways. My entire family voted Remain. We have chefs, tilers, plumbers, teachers, social workers, nurses, health visitors, senior managers (private and public), architects, civil engineers, entrepreneurs and so on. None of us aged w0’s - 60’s could see any positives in leaving the EU. Nothing has happened to change those views.
One of the enduring sadnesses for me, is the knowledge that some in our former wealthy mill town, king cotton, voted Leave in the belief that would stop immigrants from Pakistan. No understanding or acceptance about why our town and others like it have a thriving population of people with roots in Pakistan
We don’t teach our history well. Our population needs to be better educated, better informed.

I’m a Remainer Dickens but I’m not offended. I’ve never been to Hampstead and there are no artisanal bakeries where I live. For most of my working life I worked in Scottish city that routinely comes near the bottom of the list of “well off” cities. It predominantly voted Remain, incidentally. The place where I worked employed people from the city and people from all over the EU. There are a lot of EU nationals in the city – well there were, many of them have left now.

DM left school 70 years ago and doesn’t have a qualification to her name. There has been a huge influx of people from the EU into the area she lives in, doing work that needs doing in an industry that is (was) thriving. It’s probably very like Lincolnshire, but with different industries. We went there recently. The only restaurants we could find was a chip shop and a hotel bar. DM and most people who lived there, voted Remain.

People voted to Remain because they could work out which side our bread was buttered. The Remain campaign was lacklustre but I think that's because nobody could ever imagine that anybody would vote to make themselves worse off. Its completely unfair to suggest that the Remainers should have done something about the people who thought they were badly off because of the EU. I’ve seen this many times on here – ah, they were so badly done by, we should have helped them. That’s not the Remainers job that’s the Governments job and they didn’t do it.

We didn’t fail at all. Cameron failed when he set this daft idea in motion. The governments of the last 40 years have failed by telling people that all their problems were because of the EU then not expecting them to vote against it. Saying “we failed” is even worse than saying that the less well educated voted for Brexit. Its patronising and its paternalistic. The Government failed, over and over again.

Yes, I couldnt agree more. Much more articulate than my moaning!.
Its somehow similar to the left of the labour party (most of whom are middle class to their core) being surprised when the working class wont embrace their vision for them.

Galaxy

I thought about it before I voted to remain and asked myself whether leaving would solve any of that and decided it wouldn't. I cringed when I heard some of the "Remainer" arguments and wanted to shout out "Listen to these people! Just listen and do something about the grievances before they commit hari-kari".

I think some - many? - Remainers (of which I am one) completely failed, and still fail, to understand that because of our very unequal society, the benefits of our membership of the EU were not equal to all.

I don't know how to put this diplomatically, without causing offence to someone, but I'll try.

The well-heeled City worker living in leafy Hampstead Heath, London, stopping on his way back from work at an 'artisanal' late-opening Polish deli in Heath Street to pick up something interesting for supper is not living in the same environment as the resident of, say, Boston in Lincolnshire (or anywhere along the east coast) where low-paying, unskilled jobs contribute to its decline, and which has seen the largest influx of East Europeans.

Hampstead has always been cosmopolitan to some extent, even as far back as the late 50s, early 60s. To that extent it hasn't changed much - there's just more choice of 'foreign' delicacies and culture. Boston, on the other hand, changed virtually overnight. There was little time to adapt, and little opportunity to build up the infrastructure to cope with the change and the numbers. And, rightly or wrongly, people are tribal to a large extent, the familiarity of your surroundings and people are part of a community's sense of security and well-being (having travelled extensively in Eastern Europe, I know this sense of identify is not particular to us only).

It's all too easy and predictable to dismiss Brexiters as racist / uneducated, etc, etc... but did Remainers stop to think about this or even want to address the inequality - an inequality imposed largely by our own government(s). Since Thatcher, the decline of the east Midlands and parts of the North after de-industrialisation have had a savage effect on people's lives. Of course, some areas benefited from regional funding from the EU - but did people know this? And why wasn't there sufficient funding implemented by our own government?

Some Brexit voters voted for it to "stick it to Cameron" - misplaced ire, but they were aware that he lived in a different world to them and seemed not to care about their fate - other than to suggest they call him 'Dave'.

Why didn't Remainers address these issues - and challenge government and its ideology which has resulted in social mobility almost grinding to a halt? None of this is the fault of East Europeans, or any other Europeans, nor the EU... our problems are largely home-grown (something Boris Johnson himself once acknowledged).

The Leave campaign was built on lies and deceit, but the Remain campaign was totally lacklustre, somewhat elitist, and didn't, as far as I can see, once get to the heart of the issue because it failed to acknowledge the real - as you call them - grievances of the Brexit 'man in the street'.

The Referendum came at the wrong time and was instituted for the wrong reasons - looking at you, David Cameron. We needed a national debate first on the decades of stagnation of the 'left-behind' living in left-behind areas... whose only Champion was Ian Duncan-Smith who cried crocodile tears at what his own government's policies had forced on them, and who's answer was, basically, just "get back to work" - presumably in those low-skilled, low-paid jobs which were, somehow, going to turn their lives around.

We failed.

GrannyGravy13

volver

On this thread, nobody at all has suggested that people should have a certain level of education before they are allowed to vote. So I think I'm quite justified in pointing out that you are ascribing those beliefs to people who have never said such a thing.

It wasn’t all about you volver

I asked who you were talking to. You said: To any poster/s who continually post regarding the correlation between education and voting. I'd just been posting about the proven correlation between education and voting (in a particular circumstance.)

??

volver

On this thread, nobody at all has suggested that people should have a certain level of education before they are allowed to vote. So I think I'm quite justified in pointing out that you are ascribing those beliefs to people who have never said such a thing.

It wasn’t all about you volver

On this thread, nobody at all has suggested that people should have a certain level of education before they are allowed to vote. So I think I'm quite justified in pointing out that you are ascribing those beliefs to people who have never said such a thing.

My post of 15.45 yesterday was general thinking not directed at any particular poster, I stand by my post.

Since I have been on GN (4 years) there have been multiple posts referring to uneducated voters along with maybe there should be a level of education in order to vote on various N & P threads.

As for the elites are out to get them who are the so called elites and them volver ?

GrannyGravy13

Making up stories about posters is not my style.

Nobody here, but nobody has said anything about limiting the franchise to people with a higher level of educational qualifications. Whether you want to hear it or not, a person's level of educational attainment had a big influence on whether they voted for Brexit or not. It’s a complex argument. Growstuff commented that its probably more complicated that I wrote, and she’s probably right, but now we’re arguing about one determinant of voting behaviour in the Brexit referendum and excluding all the others, because some posters are trying to pretend that a proven fact means some of us are trying to limit the franchise. For pretend you can read “making up stories”.

What I’ve never understood is why national newspapers are allowed to print blatant lies,( usually on their front pages) which are then looked on as gospel by large numbers of the electorate.

Making up stories about posters is not my style.

Why?

As opposed to people posting the facts and then others making up stories about them?

volver

GrannyGravy13

volver

Sorry Dinahmo, I made a post about half an hour ago but forgot to actually post it. I'm sorry that I misunderstood you!

GG13 - who is that post at 15:45 addressed to?

To any poster/s who continually post regarding the correlation between education and voting.

the correlation between education and voting.

You mean all the research that has been published again and again that shows the correlation between education and voting for Brexit.

www.statista.com/statistics/572613/eu-referendum-decision-by-highest-educational-attainment-uk/

This is a good one. It’s got a graph.

Are you suggesting that we need to have a degree to vote, or would you be content to let those who have A levels or equivalent to cast their X at the ballot box.
No, obviously not. Either you have misunderstood what we’re saying, or you are stirring up things for your own ends.

God forbid that those of the populace who only scraped a few GCSEs or for the elder amongst us the odd CSE or GCE would be allowed to vote. Indeed. Agreed.

As for those who left school with no qualifications, no doubt you would like to see them struck off of the electoral roll.
You see inside my head do you? You know what I’m thinking? What an untrue, ridiculous and completely uncalled for comment.

Its a fact that those who voted for Brexit on average had lower educational attainment. Instead of pretending the élites are out to get them, you might want to engage in conversations about why that voting split might be.

Patronising…

GrannyGravy13

volver

Sorry Dinahmo, I made a post about half an hour ago but forgot to actually post it. I'm sorry that I misunderstood you!

GG13 - who is that post at 15:45 addressed to?

To any poster/s who continually post regarding the correlation between education and voting.

the correlation between education and voting.

You mean all the research that has been published again and again that shows the correlation between education and voting for Brexit.

www.statista.com/statistics/572613/eu-referendum-decision-by-highest-educational-attainment-uk/

This is a good one. It’s got a graph.

Are you suggesting that we need to have a degree to vote, or would you be content to let those who have A levels or equivalent to cast their X at the ballot box.
No, obviously not. Either you have misunderstood what we’re saying, or you are stirring up things for your own ends.

God forbid that those of the populace who only scraped a few GCSEs or for the elder amongst us the odd CSE or GCE would be allowed to vote. Indeed. Agreed.

As for those who left school with no qualifications, no doubt you would like to see them struck off of the electoral roll.
You see inside my head do you? You know what I’m thinking? What an untrue, ridiculous and completely uncalled for comment.

Its a fact that those who voted for Brexit on average had lower educational attainment. Instead of pretending the élites are out to get them, you might want to engage in conversations about why that voting split might be.

volver

Sorry Dinahmo, I made a post about half an hour ago but forgot to actually post it. I'm sorry that I misunderstood you!

GG13 - who is that post at 15:45 addressed to?

To any poster/s who continually post regarding the correlation between education and voting.

This made me smile. We could all do with a laugh.

Brexit is a economic disaster and we shall all (except people like Rees-Mogg who moved his business to Dublin) be paying for it for generations to come. It was sold to the sheep who worried about sovereignty. Well, there will be a lot less to have sovereignty over in future years. Johnson is the main beneficiary of Brexit.

Sorry Dinahmo, I made a post about half an hour ago but forgot to actually post it. I'm sorry that I misunderstood you!

GG13 - who is that post at 15:45 addressed to?

GranyGravy
I think you know the answer but obviously it can not be publicly announced ?

I would like to know your definition of highly educated ?

Are you suggesting that we need to have a degree to vote, or would you be content to let those who have A levels or equivalent to cast their X at the ballot box.

God forbid that those of the populace who only scraped a few GCSEs or for the elder amongst us the odd CSE or GCE would be allowed to vote.

As for those who left school with no qualifications, no doubt you would like to see them struck off of the electoral roll.