Labour says it is now the true party of patriotism

Parsley, your friend Casdon felt it necessary to point out to me that your opinion is as "valid" as anybody else's. I apologise if you thought I didn't think it was.

The reason I asked the question quoted above is that I wanted to extend my understanding of your thinking. I don't know what else validates an opinion more than that. I will not discuss this topic any further as I had no intention to upset anyone.

DaisyAnne

I still can't work out what your opinion is on the characteristics of Britishness, I'm afraid Parsely. You said it was different in each of our countries but not how. That was all I was asking. Otherwise, we are just guessing what you meant.

Parsley’s opinion is as valid as anybody else’s DaisyAnne, and I agree with her. There’s a word we use in Wales which describes what I think is patriotism, it’s Hiraeth, which is a Welsh word that has no direct English translation. It’s a sort of homesickness, which I think is a mourning for your homeland, what you are missing, nostalgia and love, particularly when you are not at home. I probably haven’t described that very well, but it’s something all Welsh people recognise and understand. It probably comes from all the attempts to subsume Wales into being part of England which creates that bond all Welsh people have that’s distinct from the rest of the UK.

Perhaps it is easier to define the opposite

It is deeply unpatriotic to knowingly do something which causes harm to our country.

Some may be able to see recent examples.

I still can't work out what your opinion is on the characteristics of Britishness, I'm afraid Parsely. You said it was different in each of our countries but not how. That was all I was asking. Otherwise, we are just guessing what you meant.

Patriotism is fine when you are defending your country against an aggressor as with Ukraine.

It is not OK when it is used to rally support for any particular group, that group may well have entirely just cause to want support, but it’s not patriotism. To say it’s patriotic to support the Labour or Tory party is nonsense.

I am not suggesting anything DaisyAnne I was simply expressing my opinion not a fact.

I was trying to think about things that we take no notice of, that we just accept as being 'us', perhaps not the post box topper but the post box itself. When we go to France, if we want to post a letter we have to comsciously look for a yellow box, which can probably only be found if you can find a post office.

Perhaps, a better example is Ukraine. The majority of Ukrainians have united to fight to defend the country from an aggressor. They have made it clear that they live in an area called Ukraine and they intend to defend it and die for it to keep it independent. Their patriotism, this view of themselves as a nation prepared to die for it, is the classic view of patriotism

Yet before the recent attack, this was a divided country. The reason Zelensky was elected President was because the countries inhabitants lived in a deeply corrupt state with rulers who fiddled the votes, as in Belorussia, and pocketed the state revenues. Zelensky's election was a public response to this on the basis that if the existing 'democratic' government was a joke, it was so self serving, why not elect a comedian to run it. Before the war Zekensky was finding it difficult to govern this country divided by politics and corruption.

With the war and his inspired leadership, the country has united behind a patriotic desire to be Ukraine and Ukrainians

Ahead, we look destined for three old or ageing kings: Charles, William and George, all likely to accede in their 60s or 70s in this long-lived line. Is there never to be a pause for thought? Boris Johnson has shown how easily a rogue prime minister abuses an unwritten constitution, with an unelected and symbolic head of state obedient only to that prime minister. Elected presidents, as in Ireland’s distinguished choices, have a formal role as guarantors of constitutions. A Labour party constantly challenged to prove its patriotism will never turn republican until the public gets there first. We need a constitutional convention to reform our political system’s deformities, above all electoral, but also its warping by the monarchy.

Today, enjoy the pomp and spectacle, but remember the infantilising influence on Britain’s political psyche of babies born to rule. “Modernise” it as much as her heir may try, the whole fandango of inheritance helps keep this country unequal and socially immobile, weighed down by the power of birth privilege.

National celebrations make for shared memories. But don’t let the culture warriors turn monarchy into a test of patriotism. Passionate patriotism comes from a thousand different reasons to love the place where you belong. Britain’s proudest achievements – from Shakespeare to the NHS, the BBC to the Beatles, Edward Jenner’s vaccinations to the steam engine, the television and Tim Berners-Lee’s world wide web – have nothing to do with heredity. National history will always be fluidly reinterpreted through changing prisms. Each revision is invariably castigated as “woke”, but that history is dead if it is set in concrete memorials, as the culture warriors wish it to be.

Polly Toynbee

Parsley3

It is the spirit of part of our country. Being British means something different to each of the four nations.

Does it Parsley? So I have suggested three of the characteristics of the UK are tolerance, openness and generosity (happy to hear what others think are our qualities). In which of the countries is this not the case?

This thread is not about politics but about the character of the country, whichever one you are talking about. If it were about politics you would be talking about your allegiance to a party. The whole point is that, in the past, we did accept different views. Are you suggesting you would only feel patriotic towards a country that upheld your views? That would make an interesting discussion.

Johnson used “patriotism”to win the Brexit vote

The last refuge of a scoundrel

It is the spirit of part of our country. Being British means something different to each of the four nations.

If you want to see what being British is you just had to watch the Platinum Jubilee, that’s the spirit of out Country.

I think, also, that some of us feel more of an affinity, patriotism, and link to our own country, rather than Britain as a whole.

The four nations that make up the UK are unique, and often different, in their own ways.

Galaxy

Yes I agree but it's very hard to quantify 'items' into patriotism or community I think. If I had to think of something 'British' I might picture bowling on the village green but I live in a reasonably well to do village, my concept is probably irrelevant to many. It's not an easy idea to express for a political party. I think donning my hard hat that Blair managed to sell Britain and patriotism to the voters.

It would be Galaxy, if that is what being patriotic referred to. It was our tolerance that I mentioned. It's been hard to feel that tolerance is a British characteristic; it certainly doesn't feel as if it has been recently. However, the "tolerant" aren't loud and rarely get in the newspaper so I believe/hope it is still a foundation stone of our nation.

I can see what you say about the village being an example that shows Britishness. However, again I would say it's not about "something" British but the larger concept of community. For some that will be a village (rich or poor) for some, their Care Home, for some their street and sometimes a town or city.

DaisyAnne
Brexit was never about tolerance, openness and generosity. Politics in general is not and has not been about that for a long time.
Patriotism means so many different things to do many different people and other's views are often greeted with an amazing lack of tolerance, causing the division and hatred you mention.
I wouldn’t disagree with your ideals, but which values do you suggest that everyone would get behind in the name of patriotism?

Yes I agree but it's very hard to quantify 'items' into patriotism or community I think. If I had to think of something 'British' I might picture bowling on the village green but I live in a reasonably well to do village, my concept is probably irrelevant to many. It's not an easy idea to express for a political party. I think donning my hard hat that Blair managed to sell Britain and patriotism to the voters.

Galaxy, I don't think I said you were angry. I think you may have misread it as personal when it wasn't. I was referring to the country. To me, this is about so much more than the individual. Communities are how we survive.

Galaxy

I am not angry about them DaisyAnne, why would you think that, I dont think I ever give them a second thought.

Okay.

Regarding your post Mollygo [Sun 05-Jun-22 11:23:46]. I am not sure where "tolerance, openness and generosity" were reflected in the conversations about Brexit. They were more an example of division and hatred; the opposite of our previous view of Britishness. I think we can all take some blame for that but if we want to thrive I would suggest we need to turn that back round to our original values and ensure that others don't persuade us that "might is right" or that division and hatred are something we should feel patriotic about.

I am not angry about them DaisyAnne, why would you think that, I dont think I ever give them a second thought.

In answer to your posts Galaxy the "crochet hats" - this one is knitted, was spotted this today in Ballater Scotland and shared on FB - do play a part in Britishness. An excentricity, yes. But we used to smile benignly at one anothers excentricities. Being patriotic is about is shared values regarding who we are as human beings and one of those shared values has been tolerance. Has it stopped being that?

If we continue to divide society because of the things we don't share - and these are many - then we are simply breaking our relationships with others.

This isn't working and hasn't been working for some years. There was a time when those benign smiles helped oil the wheels of society. And then we got angry.

M0nica (thank you for the kind words) said that no particular party has a monopoly on patriotism. It seems to me that no particular part has a monopoly on forbearance either and we need the second to allow the first to surface.

Be careful what you wish for. Patriotism was mentioned in the move for Brexit.
If the Labour Party has adopted patriotism as its new buzzword, it’s as well Tony Blair isn’t leading the party.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-tony-blair-juncker-interview-referendum-remain-a9184781.html?amp

I suppose we have to be careful about assuming that other people feel the way we do. I am utterly indifferent to the crochet hats and just dont particularly associate them with Britain. I have no problem with people thinking otherwise though. I actually think patriotic values might be easier for a political party to articulate.

It is not a question of values but of being something done in this country that other countries would not do, whether you lke them or loathe them.

But that's an example of the difficulties of it I suppose. The crocheted hats dont speak to me of Britain or its values, it's not easy.