Working class? Don't think that Oxbridge is for you.

GrannyGravy13

It is possible to have a fulfilling culturally rich life without having gone to Oxbridge or any other university.

Is anyone saying that it isn't?

GrannyGravy13

It is possible to have a fulfilling culturally rich life without having gone to Oxbridge or any other university.

I don't think anybody is claiming otherwise. That's a strawman argument. However, there is little doubt that higher education for most people opens doors to opportunities which some people don't even know exist.

MOnica gave the example of her DS. However, he had a choice. He also has educated parents. Many children at the bottom of the social hierarchy don't have that choice.

PS. Has anybody actually read the report I linked to?

Whilst it's true that some universities are more prestigious than others and likely to lead higher pay and more powerful jobs, those who claim that some degrees don't matter are contradicting the point that Birbalsingh was making. She's saying that all achievement should be applauded, not just degrees from "traditional" universities and courses.

rafichagran

My Grandson got top grades in his GCSE, he has decided he does not want to do A levels, and he does not want to go to Uni.
My Grandson did a trainee ship in the summer holidays at 16 and the employer was very impressed with him and offered him an apprenticeship in engineering.
To get to this job he cycles 20 minutes to the train station, and after he gets off the train he cycles another 15 minutes. He is just 17 learning to drive, had his theory test 10 days after his birthday. He is very motivated.
I am very proud of my Grandson especially as he made his own informed decision. I can see where where this head teacher is coming from, not everyone wants to go to University, and it is not the be all and end all, but if someone wants to go to Oxford that is fine to. I think she is saying we should be proud of all achievements.

Yes, she is, but she expressed herself clumsily and, quite honestly, I would expect better from a government appointed "tsar". Your grandson had a choice - but some children aren't given a choice. All sorts of factors mean they get stuck and social mobility becomes a more difficult uphill struggle than it does for some others.

growstuff

rafichagran

My Grandson got top grades in his GCSE, he has decided he does not want to do A levels, and he does not want to go to Uni.
My Grandson did a trainee ship in the summer holidays at 16 and the employer was very impressed with him and offered him an apprenticeship in engineering.
To get to this job he cycles 20 minutes to the train station, and after he gets off the train he cycles another 15 minutes. He is just 17 learning to drive, had his theory test 10 days after his birthday. He is very motivated.
I am very proud of my Grandson especially as he made his own informed decision. I can see where where this head teacher is coming from, not everyone wants to go to University, and it is not the be all and end all, but if someone wants to go to Oxford that is fine to. I think she is saying we should be proud of all achievements.

Yes, she is, but she expressed herself clumsily and, quite honestly, I would expect better from a government appointed "tsar". Your grandson had a choice - but some children aren't given a choice. All sorts of factors mean they get stuck and social mobility becomes a more difficult uphill struggle than it does for some others.

Well, I'm still 'struggling' to find the place in her speech where she says that some children shouldn't be given a choice.

Because that's what started this whole interesting thread and I just don't 'see' it.

This, to me, seemed to be key:

Those born nearer to the top have advantages over those born nearer to the bottom. But we need to be careful about moving from this general observation to the conclusion that nobody has agency, or that the gaps and disparities between the “disadvantaged” and everyone else are set in stone.

www.gov.uk/government/speeches/bucking-the-trend-a-fresh-approach-to-social-mobility

It seems to me that here she is saying that 'agency' exists i.e. an individual's ability to think and make decisions for themselves, rather than be defined.constrained by their circumstances. And that we shouldn't think that people's outcomes are set in stone because of their circumstances.

Which, I think, seems to completely contradict the assertions on which this thread was premised...

volver

I think that all courses contribute, but there are things offered that I do not believe should be give the status of degree level, because it cheapens the properly intellectual things. (I sound such a snob...) I know I will bring opprobrium down on my head for this but Professsional Golf isn't a degree level subject for instance. Its worth doing, there are things to learn, people need to know how to do it...but a degree?

www.uhi.ac.uk/en/courses/ba-hons-professional-golf/

I think you are pedalling backwards too volver. Which surprises me.

Anything taught at degree-level is worthwhile because of the learning skills and the all-around knowledge of that subject you acquire. The suggestion that we, in our ignorance, can pick subjects as "not worthy of degree level teaching" feels as if it is fulfilling the part of the Asimov quote which led him to believe we have a "cult of ignorance". That is where we believe our ignorance is equal to the knowledge of those running these courses. Do you know what is taught in a Professional Golf degree?

Something offered at "degree level" but not taught at that level should not be available, of course.

I think both you and GSM are talking about skills not higher education. In which case you forget that where both skills and learning take place the "degree", e.g., medicine, architecture, and law, take longer than where it is simply the subject taught at degree level. The same is true of most degree-level apprenticeships.

If you want more degree-level apprenticeships, then I couldn't agree more. I also think degrees such as law and medicine should be renamed degree-level apprenticeships.

However, this should not stop those wanting a degree from taking one. Many people go on to work in areas completely outside their original degree. Gone are the days of a "job for life". Most people will now need to show portmanteaux of skills.

Obviously, there are people who never put their education into practice. The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge spring to mind, but there are others. growstuff?

And there we have it. I will attach the quote.

Growstuff my Grandson is from a single parent family, his parents split up, money is very tight. He does not have a silver spoon in his mouth.
He made his choices, they were not easy, but he has determination, a will to succeed and he has ambition, these are things money cannot buy and he is hungry to succeed. I agree as a educational Tsar may have been clumsy in her delivery, but I still think she is right.
Let's celebrate all young peoples achievements. My daughter has a MA,my son never went to Uni, I am proud of them both.

GrannyGravy13

It is possible to have a fulfilling culturally rich life without having gone to Oxbridge or any other university.

It is certainly possible to continue learning for the rest of your life GrannyGravy13. I have met many who didn't have the opportunities for further education who have incredible knowledge in areas in which they are interested.

I would want a government to offer life-time learning. However, the Conservatives don't value it where the serfs are concerned, it seems.

DaisyAnne many mature people enter University in later life after a year long Access Course at a sixth form college.

I value all learning, what I struggle with is the attitude that if you do not go to university that you are not reaching your full potential and therefore deemed to have failed.

Failure to one person might be getting an A not an A* at A level, success to the next might be getting a promotion from shop floor/general office worker etc to a supervisor. Both are relevant to those involved, the promotion should be celebrated and the lesser mark talked through.

Also the Open University should not be dismissed, it helps many people into flexible study whilst working and not build up the debt.

My problem with what she said is that she correlates "poor" and "not very bright". She also can't see beyond schools.

I happen to agree that all achievement should be applauded, but isn't. You only have to look at GN threads to see that. A "good" school is seen as one which has a high number of pupils going to Oxbridge and/or studying medicine.

I also think that the focus of educational investment should be on high quality apprenticeships because at the moment the majority of apprenticeships are anything but "high quality". Arguably, some of the low status degrees could be converted to apprenticeships. Savvy parents and schools know how to play the system and might pay lip service to applauding all, but God forbid their own children do a "vocational" degree at a university they don't consider good enough.

I attended a talk in person given by Birbalsingh. I don't disagree with some of what she's trying to do. My problem with her is that I find her deeply patronising. She has an entrenched view of the "lower classes" and she seems to think that it's her role to "save" them.

Only a miniscule number of people in the general population have the ability to benefit from Oxford or Cambridge, but those who have the ability should be given the opportunity and encouragement. That's what middle class parents and some private schools do. Oxbridge graduates have an enormous influence on all our lives.

Social mobility in the UK has stalled. That's partly because the economy is stagnant and there isn't the growth in managerial and professional jobs which existed for the post-war generation. What's happening is that those already at the top of the pile are digging their heels in, defending what they have for themselves and their families. It's not just about wealth, but power, and naturally they want to keep it to themselves. There is a huge disparity between educational achievements in certain parts of the country which cannot be explained by raw ability. As social mobility tsar, Birbalsingh should be encouraging everybody, regardless of background, to aim for the top, There are young people who would benefit from Oxbridge or one of the prestigious universities who just don't know that they could. If they then decide to turn down the opportunity, that's really up to them, but don't give them the message that it's not for them.

GrannyGravy13

Also the Open University should not be dismissed, it helps many people into flexible study whilst working and not build up the debt.

Have you looked at the fees the OU currently charges? There is no advantage to doing an OU degree over studying at a local university.

if you do not go to university that you are not reaching your full potential and therefore deemed to have failed.

Who's saying that?

growstuff

*if you do not go to university that you are not reaching your full potential and therefore deemed to have failed.*

Who's saying that?

keep the peasants in their place

Has been posted, on here.

I also think that the focus of educational investment should be on high quality apprenticeships because at the moment the majority of apprenticeships are anything but "high quality". Arguably, some of the low status degrees could be converted to apprenticeships. Savvy parents and schools know how to play the system and might pay lip service to applauding all, but God forbid their own children do a "vocational" degree at a university they don't consider good enough.

I agree with that but with qualifications:

low status degrees - vocational degrees?
Savvy parents - as you describe it I'd call them Snobby parents!

rafichagran

Growstuff my Grandson is from a single parent family, his parents split up, money is very tight. He does not have a silver spoon in his mouth.
He made his choices, they were not easy, but he has determination, a will to succeed and he has ambition, these are things money cannot buy and he is hungry to succeed. I agree as a educational Tsar may have been clumsy in her delivery, but I still think she is right.
Let's celebrate all young peoples achievements. My daughter has a MA,my son never went to Uni, I am proud of them both.

In what way is she right?

Sorry, but I don't see how your grandson's experience is relevant.

Nobody is saying you shouldn't be proud of both your children.

The point is that if either of your children had wanted to go to Oxbridge and had the ability to benefit, they should have been given that choice and known the choice existed. Many children don't know the choice exists and what Birbalsingh said would be discouragement. In fact, both Oxford and Cambridge have very generous bursaries for children from poor backgrounds, but I bet most young people aren't told about them.

I’m not backtracking, DaisyAnne, you're just misinterpreting what I’ve said.

Anything taught at degree-level is worthwhile because of the learning skills and the all-around knowledge of that subject you acquire.

I disagree with that fundamentally. Learning how to play golf and manage a golf club, I’m afraid, doesn’t stand up to understanding Schrodinger’s equation and quantum mechanics. Or understanding Shakespeare, for the humanities minded among us. The golf things are worth doing but they are not degree level. Just saying “there’s a degree in that now” cheapens degrees that are awarded for intellectual knowledge.

However, this should not stop those wanting a degree from taking one.

Degrees are meant to be about signalling that you have gained sufficient knowledge to be “worth” a degree. Just wanting to do one isn’t enough, Being capable of doing one is what counts.

I agree with Asimov by the way. To paraphrase: My ability to run a golf club is just as good as you being able to understand and apply Maxwell’s Equations.

Growstuff Thanks for posting the link to the Sutton Trust report, which I've now read. I doubt many will bother to read the whole thing but the conclusions make pretty quick reading and are interesting and informative but rather gloomy, I'm afraid.

If you are a student at Oxbridge then by definition you are not working class, despite family origin.

I value all learning, what I struggle with is the attitude that if you do not go to university that you are not reaching your full potential and therefore deemed to have failed. GrannyGravy13 Sun 12-Jun-22 11:31:00

I would simply put that down to a lack of knowledge on behalf of the speaker. There are many ways to succeed.

However, if you have ever researched family history, how would you feel if you saw your ancestor had signed documents with a cross? Would you feel they were going to find it easy to reach their full potential? These days our economy requires more than reading and writing.

Failure is defined as a lack of success or the inability to meet an expectation. If that lack of success is measured by you and could have been achieved by education then I do think you have been sold short by governments.

growstuff Have you looked at the fees the OU currently charges? There is no advantage to doing an OU degree over studying at a local university.

Oh but there is, to begin with you can do an Open University course, bit by bit while holding down a full time job - and that is exactly what many students of the OU do OU courses are designed from day one for people who will be studying in small snatches, late at night and early in the morning, all their materials are designed for distance learning. the courses they offer are far more flexible than most ordinary university courses, even when those too are distance learning. if you cannot get to university full time then the Open University is the doyenne of distance learning courses.

How do I know this? because three weeks ago i attended DD's graduation from the Open Iniversity. She did it while working full time, she studied through a major road accident and an illneddshat nearly killed her. She was able to change the direction of her course as she went from a degree in physics and maths to a degree in STEM. She could not have done it without the flexibility of the Open University because looking after students with problems like hers are their daily bread and butter.

DD told me that more 18 year olds are signing up with the OU because of their ability to combine earning a living and saving the money to pay substantially towards the fees each year, and even though the degree takes longer, they should be able to complete it by their mid 20s.

Congratulations to your daughter Monica.

Growstuff my Gransons experience is very relevant, he is from a single parent family some may say working class, he made choices, he does not want the University experience, as for going to Oxbridge my daughter could have gone MA distinction directors prize for excellence, she chose not to go, her choice.
You state some schoolchildren do not have choices, yes they do, presumsbly they attend School, surely if the parents are not telling them about it the School/teachers should.
You complain about what this woman said, but do you think your views could sound dismissive? As I previously said she could have put it better, but I do not think she is wrong.

Congratulations to your daughter Monica