Working class? Don't think that Oxbridge is for you.

Probably because there is no single definition
Which is evident on this thread.

It's been shown that there is less social mobility at both ends of the scale.

Has this become worse or better in recent years?
Out of the past ten Prime Ministers, only two went to Eton, one to another public school.
However, seven went to Oxford.

Probably because there is no single definition.

I'll have a go at answering why it's important.

It's been shown that there is less social mobility at both ends of the scale.

That means that politicians, leading judges, CEOs of big businesses, the mega-wealthy and other powerful people tend to come from a limited pool. Not only do they control a disproportionate share of wealth, but they control everybody's lives. They are not necessarily more talented or able than other people. The Johnson family is a classic case of that phenomenon. Any society needs the most able to organise it and it doesn't have it, if some people have to fight to be given an equal chance.

Secondly, people at the bottom end find it extremely difficult to move away from the background into which they were born. They perceive the difficulty and give up, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Not only is their talent wasted, but they become society's "untouchables". They're in a minority and when the economy is under pressure, they are neglected. They don't have the resources to buy favours and their votes don't matter much. They become fodder for ridicule in the gutter press and are blamed for their own situation.

Such a situation is bad for society, apart from the ethics of abandoning people. Some of the people at the bottom end of the social pile are as intelligent as some at the top, but they're not given the same opportunities, hopes and aspirations.

I don't like Birbalsingh's analysis because, as ever, she tries to claim that others don't give those pupils opportunities, whereas she does. I heard her speak before she became famous and was a French teacher. That message came across then and she hasn't changed.

Yes, I know and found a definition earlier before I went out.

I was asking other posters because everyone's definition seems to be different.

Callistemon21

growstuff

If you read the Sutton Trust report, it's acknowledged that there is no simple definition of social mobility.

I was going to ask (again) what s the definition of social mobility.
What is it?
Why is it important?

What is the main factor in someone becoming socially mobile?
Education? Talent? Entrepreneurship? Even marriage? Sheer hard work? Ambition? Realistic, achievable expectations?
What about people who move down whatever scale it is considered to be?
Is it a matter of choice or chance?

You could start with the Wiki entry and follow the links:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility

You've asked two questions:

1 How is it defined?
2 How is it achieved?

Rather than write reams myself, I'll leave it up to Wiki.

growstuff

If you read the Sutton Trust report, it's acknowledged that there is no simple definition of social mobility.

I was going to ask (again) what s the definition of social mobility.
What is it?
Why is it important?

What is the main factor in someone becoming socially mobile?
Education? Talent? Entrepreneurship? Even marriage? Sheer hard work? Ambition? Realistic, achievable expectations?
What about people who move down whatever scale it is considered to be?
Is it a matter of choice or chance?

growstuff

If you read the Sutton Trust report, it's acknowledged that there is no simple definition of social mobility.

Yes - I’ve read the Sutton Report. The most relevant thing to this thread is that It concluded (no surprise)

• More selective institutions offer the best chance of becoming a higher earner, even taking into account prior characteristics of their students, as well as having a lower ‘class pay gap’ among their graduates. Access to these institutions has improved in the last two decades, but some selective universities with high rates of mobility demonstrate that more can be done.

We could certainly discuss the dynamics of power at length on another thread!

It's worthy of a few books! Oh hang on! People have written books about the issues, including the links to the idea of meritocracy. I wonder how many of them Birbalsingh has read.

growstuff

I would go further than you Casdon and look at the dynamics of power. In any society, some people will have more control than others. Pathways to power/control are blocked for some people, which means that an unrepresentative group makes decisions for everybody, which undermines the concept of democracy. Hence the criticisms of the "metropolitan elite" and people feeling they have no control over their own lives. That's another topic really, but it's a feeling that's been effectively exploited by a group of people who want to seize power for themselves.

It's certainly an interesting topic and worthy of a separate thread.

Oh dear, posted on wrong thread. Sorry!?

growstuff

I disagree with you Maizie and so do most researchers.

What do you disagree with, growstuff?

That a degree doesn't automatically make one socially mobile?

Well nannarose, our house is six years old and the ring on the hob that I use most has just packed up!

I would go further than you Casdon and look at the dynamics of power. In any society, some people will have more control than others. Pathways to power/control are blocked for some people, which means that an unrepresentative group makes decisions for everybody, which undermines the concept of democracy. Hence the criticisms of the "metropolitan elite" and people feeling they have no control over their own lives. That's another topic really, but it's a feeling that's been effectively exploited by a group of people who want to seize power for themselves.

I have just seen this and it made me giggle (I know it is not relevant to OP)

If you read the Sutton Trust report, it's acknowledged that there is no simple definition of social mobility.

growstuff

DaisyAnne

I imagine that this is why the government don't know where we are going, only where we have been then Casdon. No real surprise.

Do you know if any independent bodies/think tanks use different modelling?

The Resolution Foundation, the IFS and the Sutton Trust do (from the top of my head) - I expect there are more.

They are different, and none of the definitions are perfect growstuff, as you’d expect in the ever changing world, although better than the government definition in many ways. I struggle with this because pigeonholing individuals into groups is always difficult - which is why I have some sympathy with the view that an individual’s perception of their success is the most important element rather than a strict definition of social mobility based on occupation and educational background. What’s the most important is that people have equal opportunity and the tools to make the best use of their talents. Who’d have guessed at the potential for financial success of influencers 20 years ago?

ifs.org.uk/uploads/IFS-Deaton-Review-New-Year-Message.pdf

What I object to is her claim that young people at the bottom of the social ladder shouldn't aspire to the top, if that's what they have the ability to do.

Having read the speech Birbalsingh gave on 9 June, which was a precursor to the State of the Nation report coming later this year, I don't think that's what she said.

She makes a clear distinction between social mobility and occupational mobilty and argues that we need to broaden our thinking about diversity of talent to move away from a focus which is almost always on cognitive ability and the acquisition of a lucrative professional job. She says: we believe that other talents and jobs should be valued too. Few would disgree with that.

www.gov.uk/government/speeches/bucking-the-trend-a-fresh-approach-to-social-mobility

Euan Blair was awarded an MBE in the Queen's Birthday Honours for services to education, for setting up a company which encourages employers to offer apprenticeships for training and development. His company Multiverse matches school leavers with more than 300 employers to provide on-the-job training tailored to the needs of employees as well as personal coaching and extracurricular activities and societies akin to those at university.

Training is funded by a 0.5% levy placed on all companies with an annual payroll bill of more than £3m. This can be spent on their own training costs or transferred to other organisations.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jun/01/euan-blair-from-pms-son-to-700m-business-and-an-mbe

This strikes me as a very positive rollback to a time when university was not seen as the only route to a career.

DaisyAnne

I imagine that this is why the government don't know where we are going, only where we have been then Casdon. No real surprise.

Do you know if any independent bodies/think tanks use different modelling?

The Resolution Foundation, the IFS and the Sutton Trust do (from the top of my head) - I expect there are more.

Casdon

One thing I learned in my Sociology degree was that the definition of social mobility the government uses is also flawed. It’s based on occupational groups, which doesn’t take account minority career choices. I wonder what they make of TikTok stars and influencers.

Those who pay the piper call the tune.

I imagine that this is why the government don't know where we are going, only where we have been then Casdon. No real surprise.

Do you know if any independent bodies/think tanks use different modelling?

GrannyGravy Your reference to the "top of the tree" reminded me of an inspirational headteacher in a school where I once worked. His mantra was that pupils should aim for the top of the tree. They might end up somewhere on a branch half way up the tree, but if they aimed for that branch, they probably wouldn't leave the ground.

25Avalon

Whitewavemark2

No social mobility is not in sociological terms based entirely on your employment, unless if course you are a Marxist?.

A sociologists uses a number of indicators - depending on his underlying philosophical belief system.

The one being discussed is just one of many.

A proper sociologist should use all indicators and variants and be as scientific as possible which means any underlying philosophical beliefs he is she has should not enter in to it.

Agreed.

Casdon

One thing I learned in my Sociology degree was that the definition of social mobility the government uses is also flawed. It’s based on occupational groups, which doesn’t take account minority career choices. I wonder what they make of TikTok stars and influencers.

That's why the Sutton Trust report draws together a number of definitions by different stakeholders.

One thing I learned in my Sociology degree was that the definition of social mobility the government uses is also flawed. It’s based on occupational groups, which doesn’t take account minority career choices. I wonder what they make of TikTok stars and influencers.

Germanshepherdsmum

I guess if you left school at 16 with no qualifications and married a hedge fund manager you would have achieved social mobility.

?. How about a drug baron? Or a renter exploiting his tenants?