Shamima Begum

Hear, hear, hear.

The fact that she was groomed isn't the issue now. It is who SB has become. Is she the "angel" that she said she was or is she a radicalised woman with intent to cause harm in the UK?
As I have said before nobody knows what is going on in her mind.

MOnica, thanks for your posts on this thread.
SB was one of a number of youngsters in European countries, who were radicalised on line. They were young, impressionable and seduced into a belief system the majority find abhorrent.
I agree with posters who question the legality, never mind morality, of removing her citizenship. She was a child when she left. She’d been under surveillance by education and police who were aware of her internet activities. They gave her a letter about these concerns, which she didn’t give to her parents. Shocking to understand how any adult in a position of responsibility could do something so inept and dangerous. She and her family were let down. Does that leave the state with some responsibility

Usman Khan was given chance after chance after being sentenced to an indeterminate term for plotting terror attacks. This was reduced to 16 years as it was ‘unfair’. Out after half of that. Attended de radicalisation and similar schemes. Given accommodation and benefits. First chance he got he was murdering innocents there voluntary trying to help him and others to rehabilitate after prison.

No leave SB and others where they are. My concerns are with ordinary people going about their day to day lives without having to worry that someone fuelled by hatred for the west and it’s culture, either blows them apart, slits their throat or beheads them in the street. The likes of Ms Begum, whatever skin, hair or eye colour, don’t concern me one jot.

Iam64. The only point we agree on is the breathtaking ineptitude of the teacher(s) giving out warning letters to parents to the pupils concerned instead of ensuring they were delivered to the parents personally.

She’d been under surveillance by education and police who were aware of her internet activities. They gave her a letter about these concerns, which she didn’t give to her parents. Shocking to understand how any adult in a position of responsibility could do something so inept and dangerous.

I'd forgotten that, thank you for reminding us Iam64
Dereliction of duty.

Well, goodness me, how shocking. The teachers should have delivered the letters by hand, after their day's work, and waited to ensure they spoke to the parents personally.

The sweeping statements posted on this thread are amazing, or would be if they weren't so totally unrealistic.

Well, goodness me, how shocking. The teachers should have delivered the letters by hand, after their day's work, and waited to ensure they spoke to the parents personally

The police, who were monitoring her, Social Services and the Education Welfare service.

So the two Bulger boys were 'groomed' (for want of a better word) by their dreadful upbringing, then by the age of 10 they were capable of murder. There was no sympathy for them as I remember.

Begum had a normal childhood and was groomed by outsiders. But she had reached the age of 15 before she went on her murderous adventure.

My point is that you cannot consider Begum an innocent child and a victim, and the Bulger boys as responsible for their actions. So anyone who is defending Begum better be prepared to defend the Bulger boys too.

Mistakes were made and SB could have been stopped from leaving the UK at 1
That doesn't mean she wouldn't have continued to be radicalised and joined some of the groups here or left at 18.

At 15*

WHEN, in 2015, three teenage girls from east London were captured on CCTV heading off, to all appearances, for a half-term holiday jaunt no-one observing them would have thought that they were to risk life and limb for a cause which excites hatred and contempt in equal measure from their fellow British citizens.

The 15 and 16-year-old pupils from Bethnal Green Academy — Shamima Begum, Kadiza Sultana and Amira Abase — flew to Turkey and crossed the border into Syria.

Callistemon21

^Well, goodness me, how shocking. The teachers should have delivered the letters by hand, after their day's work, and waited to ensure they spoke to the parents personally^

The police, who were monitoring her, Social Services and the Education Welfare service.

I’m not minimising what SB did, or the potential ongoing risk she may cause. I’m not naive about the pressures on teachers eazybee, nor did I suggest teaching staff were responsible for delivering the letter. That would in my experience, most likely have been the role of a senior practitioner from the Safeguarding Team, probably together with a detective from the police safeguarding team.

Chestnut, don’t assume ‘there was no sympathy’ for the boys who murdered James Bolger. Being horrified by what they did to him doesn’t preclude people from feeling compassion for the dreadful lives those two children led to the point they committed that awful crime.

Nobody will convince me that she should be permitted back here. We can all imagine the scenario - every Human Rights lawyer here will be clamouring to take on such a high profile case.
She could well be acquitted, given a new identity, a property, benefits of course, and she will be free to continue her evil ways.
The woman is too much of a risk to be allowed back.
I have no sympathy for her whatsoever.

Chestnut

So the two Bulger boys were 'groomed' (for want of a better word) by their dreadful upbringing, then by the age of 10 they were capable of murder. There was no sympathy for them as I remember.

Begum had a normal childhood and was groomed by outsiders. But she had reached the age of 15 before she went on her murderous adventure.

My point is that you cannot consider Begum an innocent child and a victim, and the Bulger boys as responsible for their actions. *So anyone who is defending Begum better be prepared to defend the Bulger boys too.*

We cant say she had a normal childhood , an outsider would think mine was normal.

Of those 2 boys, one is doing well, the other reoffending.

Which goes to show some people can be healed and some can't. They both deserved that chance.

Also bare in mind these are home grown murderers and given more chance than a young lady who has already suffered greatly and hasnt been convicted of anything

Yes people did have sympathy for those boys.

Many studies have come from it.

JenniferEccles

Nobody will convince me that she should be permitted back here. We can all imagine the scenario - every Human Rights lawyer here will be clamouring to take on such a high profile case.
She could well be acquitted, given a new identity, a property, benefits of course, and she will be free to continue her evil ways.
The woman is too much of a risk to be allowed back.
I have no sympathy for her whatsoever.

You have absolutely no idea whether she would be treated as you claim.

lemsip

WHEN, in 2015, three teenage girls from east London were captured on CCTV heading off, to all appearances, for a half-term holiday jaunt no-one observing them would have thought that they were to risk life and limb for a cause which excites hatred and contempt in equal measure from their fellow British citizens.

The 15 and 16-year-old pupils from Bethnal Green Academy — Shamima Begum, Kadiza Sultana and Amira Abase — flew to Turkey and crossed the border into Syria.

Her teachers and those who had been investigating Begum damn well should have had an idea of what they were intending to do. By the time that CCTV picture was taken it was, of course, too late.

Her teachers and those who had been investigating Begum damn well should have had an idea of what they were intending to do. By the time that CCTV picture was taken it was, of course, too late.

Any responsibility laid at the parent’s door? If anybody should have been aware of what was going on in their daughter’s life it was them

Agreed, but I'm not dissecting who was responsible. I was responding to the comment about nobody knowing what they were up to, when they set off on "holiday" to Turkey.

PS. I have a feeling her father was living mainly in Bangladesh when Begum left the UK. Maybe somebody else can confirm that or knows more.

I’m not sure that there is a parallel between the Begum case and the Bulger one. Both were, of course, extreme, and both involved underage British children, but only one case ended in an attempt to rehabilitate the perpetrators- an attempt which appears to have succeeded with one of them.

What is the point of having different ages of responsibility if we wait until a criminal child reaches adulthood to punish them? If we are going to do that we may as well abolish children’s courts and young offenders’ institutions, and throw them straight in with adult criminals.

I dare say that that would appeal to some, but fortunately the law still makes a distinction between children and adults’ ability to make decisions that can affect the rest of their lives.

As JE said Begum could well be acquitted if she comes back.
So what if she is still radicalised. We know that deradicalisation doesn't work and this could leave a potential terrorist on our streets.
The security forces are stretched and it takes so much man power to watch one potential terrorist that it would be difficult to watch her forever.
I wouldn't want the responsibility of any more lives being lost because of the emotional pull this woman seems to have.

The only way to know why SB did what she did, who knew who encouraged her, who helped her. How she feels about ti now, Is someone still controlling her, is to return her passport and bring her back to the UK..When that is done all these things can be gone into throughly. She can be prosecuted and imprisoned if necessary and decisions can then be made about her future and whether she is still a risk.

Almost everything all of us have said on this and other threads, including myself is pure speculation.

There is only one way forward. She was a child when she went, she has had some horrible experiences. The way to sort it out is to get her back to the UK and undertake a proper investigation.

If SB was acquitted, that assumes our courts find her NG of any charges she may face .
Being concerned about the rule of law doesn’t mean posters are being influenced by ‘emotional pull ‘