Shamima Begum

M0nica

Beckett Are you saying that SB, still living in a society ruled by ISIL and its followers, whatever, they may be calling themselves now should suddenly renounce it all and admit it was wrong.

Have you considered what would happen to her if she did? What would her life expectany be, a day? a week? or would she just disappear. I do not know whether she regrest her actions and has changed her views, but if I was where she was, if I wanted to survive, I would be agreeing with all the extremists surrounding me right now.

But isn't she doing that by wearing western clothes, listening to western music and giving all those "oh poor me" interviews.

Begun has given an interview to the Daily Mail. She says she wasn't bullied or abused at home, so I don't know why the assumption, from some, is that she was.

'".Begum was 15 when she and two East London school friends, Amira Abase and Kadiza Sultana, fled Britain in 2015, and remains ‘shocked by how easy it was’.

Last week, she described how another teenager, Sharmeena Begum (no relation), who left Britain to join ISIS in December 2014, had inspired the group.

‘She was my closest friend. If she had not been radicalised, I don’t think we would have been,’ she said. ‘It was online and it was a group thing. We fed off each other.

‘When people are that age, they try to discover themselves in different ways and some people discover themselves through religion and that’s what happened to us – but then we went too deep into it.’

Begum ended up in Raqqa, the capital of Islamic State’s self-styled caliphate, but insists she was ‘100 per cent’ trafficked as a bride for the group’s fighters. Yet after being captured near the Syrian town of Baghuz as ISIS was routed, she gave an infamous interview in which she lamented being ‘weak’ for fleeing the group’s last stand.

She also said that the sight of a ‘severed head in a bin didn’t faze me at all’ because it was that of ‘a captured fighter… an enemy of Islam’, defiantly adding: ‘I don’t regret coming here.’

There was widespread revulsion at her comments, and Begum soon switched to wearing Western clothing and seeking to distance herself from ISIS and its barbaric acts."

was an angel, you can ask my mum, I was an angel,’ she said. ‘In secondary school, they [Amira and Kadiza] were like my only friends because I like to have a small group of friends. I prefer quality over quantity.

‘I did not like my primary school because I faced some racism there, not constantly, but at a young age one thing is enough. Not bullied, but little comments and stuff and favouritism with teachers to white kids over non-white kids.’

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10907281/I-angel-brainwashed-Jihadi-bride-Shamima-Begum-fears-shell-face-death-penalty.html

I know more about the Jamie Bulger case than I could ever want to.

Thompson witnessed and was subjected to horrific abuse from an early age.

Venables, well up for debate but to my mind a very self interested mother that could have been, emotionally neglectful and abusive or suffered from well hidden mental health problems.

So so many warning signs exhibited by both boys.

I know this is the nature or nurture debate....

Could this tragedy have been avoided by different upbringings?

Could it have been avoided had the behaviour of the boys before this tragedy been properly treated?

It seems likely to me.

What happened to that little boy is devastating but so is what led there.

This is one of many reasons so much importance is placed on safeguarding and why we need go look at the bigger picture yet still failures happen.

I don't know a single child with concerning behavioural issues that arent linked to conditions like ADHD or ASD, who doesnt have a difficult home life.

Even, as an example, in the first 6 to 9 months, a baby may develop an attachment issue that can impact their entire lives in serious ways and while that can be deliberate neglect it can also be postnatal depression or mental health issues mum isn't aware of. Simply not holding a baby enough or making eye contact and responding to ques.

When we look into addictions we find most addicts have a history of trauma.

Rambling because I can't sleep but there are plenty of reasons to hypothesise that, nurture is responsible for a lot and a lot can and should be done to ensure children are properly cared for.

Also, none of them were ‘innocent’ legally. It’s not about that. It’s about how a supposedly civilised country treats criminals, and in this case, as with the Bulger murder, how a supposedly civilised country treats criminal children.

Do we concentrate on the criminality or the fact that they are children? I’m not sure what mentality sees children as fully responsible for their actions. How would someone who does so define a child?

I suspect that the people who see Begum as a child won’t be the ones who were banging on the police van shouting for the Bulger killers to be killed when the ten year olds were inside.

We have different rules for children for a reason. We can’t pick and choose which ones to stand by, unless we want mob rule.

An innocent child left the UK and crimes were committed against her
So she was 'an innocent child' at 15 years and yet the two Bulger boys were only 10 years old and yet considered monsters who should be locked away for ever. At what point do you cease to be an innocent child?

M0nica

Actually it is so nice to know that so many on this thread are such heroines. If they were in SB's place, despite being surrounded by ISIL extremists, with a history of violence of the nastiest kind they would be prepared to admit they had got it wrong and that ISIL was wrong and they would go willingly to the nasty and probably very slow painful death they would inevitably face.

Me? I am a coward, In her current situation I would agree to anything just to save my life.

But my respect for the willing martyrs among us is immense. But all of us can be brave when we know we will never have to face what others are facing on a daily basis.

Perfectly put, M0nica.

AGAA4

The logic is that she has been radicalised. Whatever she has been through doesn't mean that she isn't a dangerous woman now.
She is no longer an innocent 15 year old.

Right so the emphasis needs to be preventing this in the first place, which starts at home and working towards:

Stable home environments

Safeguarding

Education

Eradicating discrimination avainst minorities

Not just absolving ourselves of responisbility when we fail a child

It's a shame Peter Sutcliffe or any other serial killer didn't have a foreign-born parent. Then the UK could have deported him and washed our hands of him rather than spending millions keeping him in Broadmoor and prison.

Logically, it's about what risk she poses to others, regardless of what her motives or reasons are.
We have to trust the justice system to be able to decide, and them implement the best course of action.

I'm afraid I set little faith in the idea that all the necessary agencies are going to liaise, and keep everybody safe, including Begum.

The logic is that she has been radicalised. Whatever she has been through doesn't mean that she isn't a dangerous woman now.
She is no longer an innocent 15 year old.

People are not at all being objective lol

No one is suggesting that we bring jer bavk, give her a hug and get her her long craved for subway

Just saying we failed her and continue to do so.

We also failed her little baby.

Safeguarding fail by the UK do you mean?

VioletSky

You really dont understand grooming do you.

As an abuse survivor I do.

You are not looking at this dispassionately.

Understandable if you have had problems but we do not know about them and are trying to be objective.

An innocent child left the UK and crimes were committed against her

Several of her classmates have said that she tried to recruit them to ISIL so, as an intelligent 15 year old, she did have some idea of their aims.

You really dont understand grooming do you.

As an abuse survivor I do.

Most don't go off and join terrorist groups though.

AGAA4

Sigh ...this is about someone who went to join a terrorist organisation aged 15. Most 15 year olds know it's wrong to kill and she was intelligent enough to know what the organisation she was joining was about.
None of us know what's in her mind now.
The head of the security organisation said there is no way she should be brought back to the UK and they know a damn sight more about this than any of us.

Which part of this expresses empathy?

Do you think some are deserving of crimes committed against them for their behaviour after said crimes have broken them?

How does that work exactly?

An innocent child left the UK and crimes were committed against her, sbe lost friends, her babies and witnessed things awful enough to break anyone and now she must be punshed even more than that?

Not logical I am afraid.

Sigh. Lots of 15 year olds are vulnerable to grooming whether online or otherwise. I dont know if that was the case here but I do know that she knew what she was doing about 15 year olds has been used many times before.

If she is bought back, realistically what prison term would be appropriate (if there is an appropriate one for crimes of this magnitude)
Or, as a child, perhaps there should be no question of any real incarceration?

Sigh ...this is about someone who went to join a terrorist organisation aged 15. Most 15 year olds know it's wrong to kill and she was intelligent enough to know what the organisation she was joining was about.
None of us know what's in her mind now.
The head of the security organisation said there is no way she should be brought back to the UK and they know a damn sight more about this than any of us.

AGAA4

I haven't seen much empathy for the victims of these terrorists.
This reminds me of all the support groups for perpetrators of crime and hardly any for victims.
You don't win an argument with sarcasm either or by claiming you know someone else's mind.

Thats not what this thread is about though is it.

Perhaps you could start your own thread about terrorism itself.

Especially as there has been no trial and no crime proven against this young lady and she has suffered greatly as a victim of grooming, statutory rape, and lost children.

Empathy is not exclusionary btw

GrannyGravy13

I have no idea what she was looking for Callistemon21 but as a mother I know 15 yr olds are impressionable.

I worked on the city at the height of the IRA bombing campaign, too close for comfort on several occasions, as unpalatable as it may feel we have to move on.

Only she knows if she has changed.

Possibly as a Muslim girl living in a country where her peers are exploring and experimenting with sex, alcohol and drugs she wanted a society where she felt she would belong. She was lured in by experts who groomed and seduced her, by the time she realised what was involved it was too late. Then she had to choose and she did what survivors do, she chose to side with the oppressors. It takes years to get over something like that. Even adults who witness atrocities have problems recovering, a teenage girl would take even longer. Teenage brains are different and respond differently. It's one of the reasons that under 18s are not considered as suitable for the armed forces in most civilised countries.

I haven't seen much empathy for the victims of these terrorists.
This reminds me of all the support groups for perpetrators of crime and hardly any for victims.
You don't win an argument with sarcasm either or by claiming you know someone else's mind.