Sir Lenny Henry on UK festivals.

MissingMarietta ; your post has just made me remember an incident with a good friend who had two mixed race children that were beautiful.
You posted "I also liked my golliwog too and just associated him with Robertson jam and their badges, not realizing then of course what message golliwogs were giving out.

As you pointed out you missed the message. I would say that perhaps the toy in the past was certainly old-fashioned however it was a symbol to some people as reference to people of colour. Getting to my point a youngish man made reference to my friends children as having golliwog hair and they looked like they had just jumped off the Robertson jam jar. Certainly a very distasteful and venomous comment particularly when addressing it about children. Luckily for the young man he managed to get away from several people who overheard this comment and were far from amused.
This was several years ago now and for people like that to have those kind of views as far as I am concerned is unbelievable.

I'm glad that there were some lovely black dolls back then as well!

I was a child so I probably wouldn't have discerned if the black dolls where awful or not good looking. I know I wanted one and the argument against was that I didn't play with my 'white' doll much but was always with my teddy. And the family wasn't that well off.

Well the doll I wasn't keen on had one eye that opened and one that was always closed so it annoyed me too much!

I was in Bristol in the 50's and know black dolls existed because I saw them in the local toy shop. [I also liked my golliwog too and just associated him with Robertson jam [and their badges], not realising then of course what message golliwogs were giving out.

Mine was lovely ?

I am 73 and used to see black dolls [admittedly in the minority] in the 50's in the local toy shops and really, really wanted one. [I never got one though!] So I think what she said was her own experience but wrong

I had a medium sized black doll and same-sized white doll, dressed in identical clothes my Mum knitted for them. I called them my twins. That would be early 1950s

I also remember Mum buying and dressing a black doll for my friend who was in hospital after an accident.

missingmarietta & GagaJo - my experience exactly with the dolls!
A factory local to us made dolls and did make black dolls. Dressing them was 'homework' often done by our aunts & nans, so I saw those dolls. I'd agree that they weren't nice looking dolls at all.
However, in the interests of completeness, I thought all dolls of any colour (I had a vaguely brown one as well as the usual pink) were all spooky; and I never played with them, just said 'thank you' politely when given them.

And for those interested, the fabulous Lady Nade is playig Glasonbury!

volver

Sorry in advance if this comes over as a sermon...

The comment that Sir Lenny made was entirely true. I still haven't read the interview, but I believe it was made in the context of how Caribbean people are still not represented in some parts of society today.

So fatuous comments about shipping people in just come across as minimising the issue and laughing at what he says.

Anyway, the TV program which led to the interview is on the BBC next week, we can all watch it.

No, it doesn't sound like a sermon (to me, at least).

I don't think that commenting about the number of people of colour at an event (or who attend a type of event) is racist. It is an observation. I don't think it would be any more racist if a white person had said it.

It is many years since I was at a festival, so am not in a position to comment on whether it's true or not, but music, particularly for young people, can be tribal, with people in different subcultural (as well as cultural) groups identifying with particular bands, and adopting particular clothing and so on as signifiers of that identification. It wouldn't be surprising if cultural group had a bearing on which 'tribe' people belonged to.

Finding out if this is the case, and attempting to balance the lineup of bands at the likes of Glastonbury could be a way of mitigating this, or it could be that everyone concerned is happy with the provision as it stands, and that there are equivalent outlets for those who aren't keen on the ones who play Glastonbury. The point is that unless someone asks the questions the organisers will never know. It's not enough to assume that people aren't interested in something (whether it's hill walking, opera or festivals) based simply on the take-up.

We'll have to disagree on that GagaJo. Why would it be unsuitable for national TV? He was such a ridiculous figure that people could see how extreme and laughable he was. Anybody who didn't was already a lost cause, I think.

Anyway, that's my view, you might think differently, of course.

volver

The horrible racist Alf Garnett was satire.

Of course. But not suitable to be on national TV.

The horrible racist Alf Garnett was satire.

missingmarietta

I'm not a fan of Lenny Henry, however I think he has noted a fact that there are few black people at Glastonbury. I have been to clubs where black people massively predominate and the type of music was the factor there.

Today though, Charlene White was talking about the lack of black dolls here when she was small. Her mother would ask Charlene's uncle to bring black dolls over from the USA. She is 41 so a child of the eighties.

I am 73 and used to see black dolls [admittedly in the minority] in the 50's in the local toy shops and really, really wanted one. [I never got one though!] So I think what she said was her own experience but wrong.

I think that her experience is pretty standard actually. When I had my daughter in the mid 1980s, there was a definite lack of Black representation in childrens toys. There may have been a single Black Barbie or Raggedy Ann, but they were token Black dolls. It wasn't common.

My Mother bought my DD a horrible, cheap Black doll, just because it was the only one she could find. I found it again when I cleared her house out a few months ago and it really was awful. Only one step away from the racist caricature of the gollywog.

My daughter had an experience with a school friend at the time. Similar to Charlene White experience, there were no magazines for Black women (or none that we could find) in the 1980s in the UK. We used to get them from the US. One of my DD's friends asked why she had to have a magazine specifically for Black women/girls. So my DD sat down with her friend, and flicked through her friend's mags. A sea of white. No other colours, other than possibly the very occasional photo of Naomi Campbell.

This is lived experience. Unless you are of colour, you will in all likelihood have no understanding/memory of this.

That horrible racist Alf Garnet didn't finish on UK TV until 1992. The 1980s weren't any kind of decade of inclusivity.

Sorry in advance if this comes over as a sermon...

The comment that Sir Lenny made was entirely true. I still haven't read the interview, but I believe it was made in the context of how Caribbean people are still not represented in some parts of society today.

So fatuous comments about shipping people in just come across as minimising the issue and laughing at what he says.

Anyway, the TV program which led to the interview is on the BBC next week, we can all watch it.

lemsip

*so He stated that there was a lack of black and brown faces at music festivals in Britain*
...............................................
shall a coachload be shipped in at the next one then?

QED.

so He stated that there was a lack of black and brown faces at music festivals in Britain
...............................................
shall a coachload be shipped in at the next one then?

I'm not a fan of Lenny Henry, however I think he has noted a fact that there are few black people at Glastonbury. I have been to clubs where black people massively predominate and the type of music was the factor there.

Today though, Charlene White was talking about the lack of black dolls here when she was small. Her mother would ask Charlene's uncle to bring black dolls over from the USA. She is 41 so a child of the eighties.

I am 73 and used to see black dolls [admittedly in the minority] in the 50's in the local toy shops and really, really wanted one. [I never got one though!] So I think what she said was her own experience but wrong.

I think we may be agreeing GagaJo.

The discussion it engendered was about racism. And he became the target of racism because of it.

So safe to say, it related to racism or at least, to the continuing dominance (social, cultural, financial) of white culture.

He didn't make a statement about racism. He stated that there was a lack of black and brown faces at music festivals in Britain. Which is true.

And people have interpreted that as a comment about racism and even said he should stay in his lane.

We need to grow up in this country.

Doodledog

Who is that aimed at, GagaJo?

LH for commenting, lemsip for asking if his comment was racist, or volver for saying it wasn't?

Anyone. A person of colour makes a statement about racism. Unless we have experience of living as a person of colour, we don't really have the experience to disagree.

When I first started going to football, it was predominantly white men. Gradually over sixty years, it has become less male, and less white.
If you were a football-watching woman in the 60s, you could go, look around and think that maybe this wasn't where you should be - hence being put off. I wouldn't have been thrilled to be told, by a man, I was being tiresome for articulating that.
Lenny Henry is in an interesting position, a sort of elder statesman of British entertainment, a respected figure and mentor to some. As with experienced, well-respected figures, they speak, I listen. I might not agree, but I don't want them not to speak.

Who is that aimed at, GagaJo?

LH for commenting, lemsip for asking if his comment was racist, or volver for saying it wasn't?

It's boring to state the obvious. It isn't for people who are in the majority (white) group, to say what is and what isn't racism.

I have spent most of my life in diverse communities. My choice of music and pastimes were a source of amusement to most of my younger friends of colour.
They thought how I spent my time sounded rather boring. The folk music that had been part of my life since childhood was also boring. I say 'most' because of course there were people with different tastes, but just talking about the prevailing attitude.

They weren't being unkind, they just didn't 'get it'. But if your entertainment budget is limited (whose isn't?) you spend your money on what you know you will like, and you go along with your friends because that makes a better outing.

I was asked along on some of their 'clubbing' nights to see acts, and once went when one of our colleagues was dancing. I thought it awful - I hated the loud music, could hardly see or hear anything, and spent much more money than at my local folk club. I was polite about it of course, but I didn't 'get it' either!

No of course not.

is his comment racist?