Can we discuss the migrant crisis in a sensible and humane way?

It depends how much this issue affects you personally I suppose.
If you’re in an area where migrants are having a negative impact on your life ( school places, housing, hospital waiting lists etc etc ) then you’ll say ‘stop! Enough! ‘ - & it’s usually the areas where there’s already social problems that migrants are settled.
If you’re a wealthy, middle class, professional living in a smart area unaffected by migrants then you’ll view it differently. Through Rose tinted spectacles maybe?

growstuff and I are not co-ordinating these responses, honestly ?

Nobody is suggesting that we let them all come here though. I think that's a fallacy that's put around by the .... well, to be honest I don't know who is putting that around.

The numbers are absolutely minuscule compared to most other countries. You only have to look at the current Ukrainian crisis and we can see that many people wanted to go to Poland, Estonia etc so that they could be close to home when the chance comes for them to return. The whole world doesn't want to come here.

If there is no legal way for people to come here, then they will rely on the people traffickers. If there is a legal way then we are in control of the numbers that apply. Desperate people won't have to resort to desperate means. But right now if we keep on trying to stick our fingers in the dyke and not solve the real problem, when the flow really becomes huge we're going to drown.

This is very shouty.
twitter.com/WritesBright/status/1537332845919752192

p.s. - our wars and so on that eventually settled down? What were the Mayflower pilgrims except for refugees seeking religious freedom?

The percentage of people who even try to come to the UK is miniscule in a global context. The UK is one of the richest countries on earth (still). We also have been (and still try to be) a big player on the world stage. Historically, people have admired the UK for so many reasons. If we have any hope of maintaining that position, we have to take our global responsibilities seriously.

No, we don't say that at all, but I think it would be helpful if we started out with some facts, which is why I've posted a couple of sources of reliable information.

I'm being provocative but do we just say 'Fine. Let them all come here'? The world has always been in turmoil somewhere. We've had wars and a revolution here in UK but seem to have worked through that. Will these other countries eventually settle down? (I don't know!)

volver

^We have people risking lives on small unsuitable boats crossing the Atlantic.^

Really?

Sorry 25Avalon, I missed your correction.

There have been many thoughtful and well considered posts on this thread which was what I hoped when I started it. There are many sensible suggestions, and acknowledgement that the dinghies landing on UK beaches are a symptom of a worldwide problem. But, the one thing we all seem to agree on is that asylum seekers need to be dealt with swiftly and efficiently, years in detention centres are wasteful financially and in humanitarian terms.

A fact which may explain the number of migrants from Eritrea and why documentation is 'destroyed'; in this war torn country, military service is compulsory, and some are forced to stay in the shambolic 'army' until they are 40 years old. This has serious implications for being able to work, raise a family, do the things that everyone else does in their early 20s and 30s, thus many destroy their papers and set off for Europe. It is often useful to know the reasons behind the migration. As for Iran and Iraq migrants; the situation in both countries is well known, Iran is a pariah state, and Iraq is now a mess due to 'regime change', surely if a country merits intervention by sovereign armed forces, we should be granting asylum to its citizens?

It’s not just human rights it’s poverty in a great many countries faced with the prospects of a life of abject poverty many head for a new life overseas, legally or otherwise, encouraged by traffickers.

Just because some other countries are worse doesn't mean that Vietnam doesn't have a poor human rights record:

www.hrw.org/asia/vietnam#:~:text=Vietnam%27s%20human%20rights%20record%20remains,%2C%20and%20religion%2C%20are%20restricted.

I have been to Vietnam a number of times and the people there are not oppressed in the same way as in many of the other countries in the world. Even neighbouring Cambodia, much worse. You can’t open your mouth and say certain things in many, many countries including China( especially Hong Kong), Myanmar, and increasingly some so called ‘free’ countries. Vietnam is by no means worse than anywhere else and should not be bracketed with the really genuinely oppressive countries

25Avalon

Quite so Growstuff but it shows the need to do something about the traffickers and controllers who deal in human misery.

It shows the need to make it easier for people to come to the UK via safe routes.

Human rights in Vietnam

Elections in Vietnam has been characterized as nothing more than a rubber stamp, with every election resulting in 99% of the votes being apparently cast for the CPV. The freedom of association, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and the right to a healthy environment are severely restricted in the country.[7] Any citizen critical of the regime as well the discussion of certain topics deemed "unacceptable" by the CPV are often subject to intimidation and imprisonment.[8]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Vietnam

You know nothing, John Snow.

Quite so Growstuff but it shows the need to do something about the traffickers and controllers who deal in human misery.

25Avalon

volver

The 600/444 don't just disappear into the ether. They enter the system.

If we had proper channels for dealing with people who want to get there, the number of people arriving by covert methods would decrease and they would be easier to track down.

Win/win.

They take enormous risks though. The Vietnamese were not fleeing persecution. And actually some migrants do vanish into the ether and then end up working in sweat shops with little pay under the control of unethical people and unable to escape because they are not here legally.

I agree that most Vietnamese aren't fleeing persecution and I would expect asylum applications to be refused. However, just giving one country as an example doesn't negate the validity of those from the other countries.

25Avalon

growstuff

And it's still not showing. Grrr!

This is a direct link

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-javids-misleading-claim-about-uks-refugee-policy

These figures only show applications that have been granted. There are plenty trying to get to UK without going through the application process - note I avoid the word illegal. There were 600 yesterday and 444 the day before risking it to get here. So why are they taking such risks to get here in particular? What is it that makes them think UK is such a great place to risk everything for? Vietnamese desperate to get here? Is there an element for some of the grass being greener?

1 More of them actually think that other places are better. Other countries also have people who are living under the radar and have had asylum claims rejected.

2 Those who want to come to the UK do so because they have family in the UK and are more likely to speak English than other languages.

One of the men who was due to fly to Rwanda was Iranian. His only living family (from memory two uncles and two brothers and their families) lived in the UK and had citizenship. He had been persecuted in Iran, so of course he would want to join family.

volver

The 600/444 don't just disappear into the ether. They enter the system.

If we had proper channels for dealing with people who want to get there, the number of people arriving by covert methods would decrease and they would be easier to track down.

Win/win.

They take enormous risks though. The Vietnamese were not fleeing persecution. And actually some migrants do vanish into the ether and then end up working in sweat shops with little pay under the control of unethical people and unable to escape because they are not here legally.

Another reliable statistic:

Where do asylum-seekers in the UK come from?

Amongst adults, Iran was the top nationality claiming asylum in the UK in 2021, as it has been every year since 2016, with 9,800 applications.

In the year ending September 2021, the top five countries of nationality for asylum applications (from main applicants) were:  Iran  (6,002), Eritrea  (4,412) Albania  (4.010),  Iraq (3,042) and Syria (2,303).

(Source:  Immigration statistics, year ending September 2021)

www.unhcr.org/uk/asylum-in-the-uk.html#:~:text=The%20top%20nationalities%20of%20people,%2C%20and%20Turkish%20(13%2C845).

Of the above, Eritrea is the only country in Africa. The human rights record in Eritrea is dire (especially for males). Eritreans would prefer to come to the UK because they already have family in the UK and they learn English at school.

The 600/444 don't just disappear into the ether. They enter the system.

If we had proper channels for dealing with people who want to get there, the number of people arriving by covert methods would decrease and they would be easier to track down.

Win/win.

growstuff

And it's still not showing. Grrr!

This is a direct link

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-javids-misleading-claim-about-uks-refugee-policy

These figures only show applications that have been granted. There are plenty trying to get to UK without going through the application process - note I avoid the word illegal. There were 600 yesterday and 444 the day before risking it to get here. So why are they taking such risks to get here in particular? What is it that makes them think UK is such a great place to risk everything for? Vietnamese desperate to get here? Is there an element for some of the grass being greener?

Interesting discussion. It’s the ‘I’m alright Jack, pull up the ladder’ mentality for those of us in the world who are alright.

This is another reliable link for anybody who wants to find out facts rather than believe the headlines churned out by the media and, sadly, some politicians:

researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN01403/SN01403.pdf

We have people risking lives on small unsuitable boats crossing the Atlantic.

Really?

Sorry HousePlantQueen. It seems the answer to your opening post is No, we can't.

Growstuff posts figures showing how few people come here.

Next post - why do they all want to come here?

How do we get past this? How do we change people's mindsets about this?