NHS sued by transgender male over surgery

Having followed a few of these threads I would advise anyone who is sympathetic and understanding about the trans community not to engage. There are a few posters who keep these threads going. They will insist they are understanding and concerned about trans people, then post perpetually about how it is just a stage, and also use the thread to post any instances they can dredge up about people who commit crimes or assaults ,dressed as women, and link these to the trans community. Replying will never change them and it just gives them the opportunity to keep castigating transpeople. Let them rant if it makes them feel better but ignore them.

None of that is true

What none of it? You know where posters glean their information from? You know that posters only get their information from biased gender critical newspapers? How?
And you do engage on the trans threads; usually to tell everyone to be kind, sometimes to tell us that this is a war that the trans community will win and sometimes accuse those who have the temerity to raise any questions as being "transphobic". None of which helps with promoting a sensible and informative discourse.

Doodledog

*LankyDolly*, people (me included) were at pains to say that it was not you we were talking about when we talked about posting and running. It was VS, who 'popped on' to say that people needn't bother to answer questions who prompted the comments. It is a habit of hers to 'pop along' to disagree with people, suggest that we don't have any experience of knowing transpeople (although her own experience appears to be entirely theoretical), tell us to be kind and then strop off when she is challenged. It gets very tiresome, particularly when people have responded to her posts which essentially say the same thing over and over.

Re: J K Rowling, she has said a great deal, but the primary stance she takes which is transphobic is to equate sex with gender, (they are not the same thing) and to say that women are those who menstruate

The very crux of the gender critical argument is that sex and gender are not the same thing. Are you sure that JKR said that? It doesn't seem very likely. I have read a lot of what she did say, and have not seen her say that, but I may have missed it. If you can link to where she said it, I'll agree that she was wrong in that, but I'd be surprised. It is also true that for all of us this is a learning curve, as the number of transitions has leapt from virtually none to what feels like epidemic proportions in about 5 years. I'm sure we've all evolved in our opinions during that time, as we've come to realise the full implications of self-id and associated issues - I certainly have, and wouldn't want to be held to my thoughts at the start of my understanding of all of this.

The 'people who menstruate' thing is usually said by transpeople and their 'allies' to separate transwomen (who they see as women) and those born female, the vast majority of whom do menstruate. It is dismissive of all women, as it reduces us to a bodily function which, as you say, does not apply to post-menopausal women and those who have had hysterectomies. Again, if JKR said this, I doubt it would be in any sort of misogynist context, but am prepared to stand corrected if you can point me to the text of what upset you.

Please believe that we do read beyond newspapers . The search function on here is rubbish; but if you are able to read around trans threads you will see that this is the case.

None of that is true, if you would like to know why I don't engage in these discussions you could try asking instead of, whatever that was...

Although I have made it clear already

Which is why it's so disconcerting that TW and their supporters disrupt so many meetings and gathering of biological women, who just want to keep their rights.

This x 1,000. I don't believe that anyone, on this thread or any of the other trans discussion threads, has EVER opined that trans should be treated with anything other than kindness, acceptance and respect. All that's asked for is that women and the gay community are treated with the same respect. The anger and violence that's stoked and encouraged by TRAs has done nothing but sow distrust, resentment and division between the trans community and natal women/gay community.

Yes, and the deeply conservative religious right are more likely to believe in gender norms, so the idea that men who conform to 'female norms' or want to 'live as female' are really women is going to be more entrenched.

They feel less "shame" as trans is more acceptable than being gay in some of the more "heavy religious" areas.

It has a horrible logic, which I think applies to many who are involved in this, that if things can be made to look "normal " all is fine.

I do feel sorry for him. In reality his life has been ruined. He now suffers from incontinence and will never be able to have a sex life as he says the area is now numb. He’s only thirty years old. Yes, I feel sorry for him.

LankyDolly, people (me included) were at pains to say that it was not you we were talking about when we talked about posting and running. It was VS, who 'popped on' to say that people needn't bother to answer questions who prompted the comments. It is a habit of hers to 'pop along' to disagree with people, suggest that we don't have any experience of knowing transpeople (although her own experience appears to be entirely theoretical), tell us to be kind and then strop off when she is challenged. It gets very tiresome, particularly when people have responded to her posts which essentially say the same thing over and over.

Re: J K Rowling, she has said a great deal, but the primary stance she takes which is transphobic is to equate sex with gender, (they are not the same thing) and to say that women are those who menstruate

The very crux of the gender critical argument is that sex and gender are not the same thing. Are you sure that JKR said that? It doesn't seem very likely. I have read a lot of what she did say, and have not seen her say that, but I may have missed it. If you can link to where she said it, I'll agree that she was wrong in that, but I'd be surprised. It is also true that for all of us this is a learning curve, as the number of transitions has leapt from virtually none to what feels like epidemic proportions in about 5 years. I'm sure we've all evolved in our opinions during that time, as we've come to realise the full implications of self-id and associated issues - I certainly have, and wouldn't want to be held to my thoughts at the start of my understanding of all of this.

The 'people who menstruate' thing is usually said by transpeople and their 'allies' to separate transwomen (who they see as women) and those born female, the vast majority of whom do menstruate. It is dismissive of all women, as it reduces us to a bodily function which, as you say, does not apply to post-menopausal women and those who have had hysterectomies. Again, if JKR said this, I doubt it would be in any sort of misogynist context, but am prepared to stand corrected if you can point me to the text of what upset you.

Please believe that we do read beyond newspapers . The search function on here is rubbish; but if you are able to read around trans threads you will see that this is the case.

I agree that no one should be insulted or abused over what they believe or want to be.

Or those that just want to be left alone with their long held freedom and rights.

Which is why it's so disconcerting that TW and their supporters disrupt so many meetings and gathering of biological women, who just want to keep their rights.

They abuse, insult, yell and harass. Then they get them cancelled.

Julie Bindel, a longtime campaigner against violence towards women, (another thread), is actually suing Nottingham Council because they called off her pre-arranged meeting, after harassment from the TW group.

I am really concerned about the information that is being presented to young people with gender dysphoria. It is frequently inaccurate and scary.
It is deeply patronising to say that we need to read more when your reporting of the comments from JKR is well a very odd interpretation of what was said.
I for one am really clear on the difference between sex and gender.

Dickens, your post reminded me of my dd1, who throughout her childhood and early adolescence rejected anything ‘girly’ - hated ever having to wear a dress or skirt - luckily we were living abroad where she could and did wear shorts to school every day.

I do often shudder to think that if that were her now, she’d very likely be ‘encouraged’ by the extreme brigade, to believe that she’d been born into the wrong body and to seek trans treatment.

She ultimately turned into a very female female - though still rarely bothers with make up - happily married with 3 little ones.

Apologies to those who tagged me earlier - I didn't get a chance to get back to the thread again last night. Re: J K Rowling, she has said a great deal, but the primary stance she takes which is transphobic is to equate sex with gender, (they are not the same thing) and to say that women are those who menstruate. This not only excludes trnaswomen, but most of us.

I hear that a lot of people talk about how teens generally go through phases of confusion and same sex attraction etc. However, my young relative identified as a gay teenager/young woman before transitioning to male, and I can only say that you would never choose either of these. There is still so much prejudice and discrimination. The incidence of rape and other physical violence is many times greater for gay and transgender people and the suicide rate also many times greater than that of the general population. Young people simple are gay, or feel they are a different gender to their born biological sex and that they have no choice whatsoever in the matter.

For those who want me to post and reply about this, why? I'm not the oracle. You really need to read things other than the newspapers, even the broadsheets are hopelessly sensational and biased about the whole thing. Please try reading more deeply around the subject - accounts of real trans lives. You have the internet. They are the sons and daughters, grandsons and grandaughters of your friends, just wanting to get on with their lives and passing for their preferred gender without being beaten up or insulted.

I’ve read similar stories from Other fundamentalist religions Diamond. Young men in Muslim countries/communities, where being trans is seen as less shameful than being gay.

Galaxy

Yes many gay people are raising concerns that this treatment is a form of conversion therapy for people who are gay. Whistleblowers at the Tavistock made claims about homophobia in the parents of children at the Tavistock.

There was a short programme/discussion on one of the cable channels, early this morning.

Apparently, in America, in some households, if a young person (usually male), comes out as gay, the parents pressurise them into coming out as "trans".

They feel less "shame" as trans in more acceptable than being gay in some of the more "heavy religious" areas.

Some teenagers now feel that they have sent down a road they never wanted to travel down, as they were just gay, but happy being their "birth" sex.

It was an American psychologist talking about it, but it's a bit alarming, if it's true.

People will end up more mixed up than ever.

Puberty onwards is a fractious time for young people. It's all raging hormones, insecurities, peer pressure, mood swings, worries about how "you" look etc

Not helped by those air-brushed influencers and reality "stars", posting online, making many teenagers feel more unattractive than ever.

Most teenagers crash about from one drama to the next, thinking that if they can change "something", it will make them happier/better looking/more popular.

It's about the worse time for them to be making any sort of life changing/irreversible decision.

It's a funny old country - the government are talking about making 21 years old the new legal age for buying cigarettes.

Yet, the same government appear to stand back while clinics/hospitals pump children full of life altering drugs or allow surgery on them.

As for NHS waiting lists, 14 months to go on a list, then a two year wait, is nothing. It takes longer than that, around here, to get hearing aids sorted out.

Yes, it's tedious when you think you are in a discussion and take the time to answer people's questions or discuss their points, then when you ask questions of your own you are 'hectoring' or 'demanding'. And the 'post and run' thing is just rude.

As you say, FN, this is not aimed at LankyDolly at all, as she hasn't declared her intention to do anything of the sort.

Some people must like to think "That's them told now!" as they post and then disappear.

Not saying that about LankyDolly who maybe just has other things to do at the moment.

If medical intervention is built on a policy of 'living like a woman's a term I have never heard adequately explained without using a range of out of date stereotypes then yes I can very well believe he wasnt given adequate care. I know a transman who was told to order testosterone over the internet by staff at a support charity. De transitioners are giving accounts that are very worrying.

LankyDolly Don’t most people especially when young uncertain confused and fearful, about life, go through times of hating their bodies hating the clothes they wear, hating their genitals for all kinds of reasons, and yes tragically too many feel suicidal. However I don’t think it’s possible to infer from this that a person is or would know they are trans. But rather shows that life itself is infinitely challenging, bewildering and often all too much for our fragile humanity.

This individual is suing the NHS because he claims not to have been properly counselled, or informed about the implications of the extensive surgery he elected to have.
As the Queen put it, memories may differ

He clearly has extensive psychological and personality problems. Some people have years of therapy and remain troubled

Good one @ 19.17 Doodledog, very well said.

Most young people question their sexuality, their bodies and where they fit in society; they always have and they always will and for the majority, it's a passing phase. But thanks to Stonewall, they're now actively encouraged to accept that they've been born into the wrong body and they're propelled to Mermaids, where their concerns are channelled still further in that direction. Giving young people, as young as 13, puberty blockers and breast binders causes irreparable harm to them if they later change their minds. It must feel as though they've been put on a conveyor belt that they're afraid to get off and, by the time they do, they could well be in the same situation as this man.

I quite agree that a family supporting a young person, who is experiencing doubts and conflict regarding their sexuality, is key to their self acceptance and happiness; but at least give them the time and space to grow, change their minds if they want to instead of putting them on a treadmill of changes that will affect them for ever more. There will be many more Keira Bell's and people like this young man.

While I don't exactly feel sorry for him I sort of know how he feels.
50 years ago I had my Fallopian tubes cut during the birth of my second child.I had almost lost my life during my first child's birth so when I found myself pregnant again two years later I was terrified.At my first ante natal appointment the consultant obstetrician told me in no uncertain terms that I should think about having the tubal tie done during the birth.I was frightened I took the form home asked my DH to sign it with means thought no more about it
After I woke up following my second caesarean section I was told a had a live healthy baby for which I was eternally thankful, in the same sentence the nurse said,''your tubes have been cut as well so you don't have to go through this again''.
The reality of that hit me in the face and has got worse over the years.I might not have had another baby but I could not stop thinking what if?.Everyone seemed to be having babies and my MIL rubbed it in further by reminding me that I had committed a mortal sin.
Despite all this I knew exactly what I had allowed the doctors do to me, that it was final and irreversal and as a result I have never gone headlong into anything without thinking about the long term consequences.This was 1972 when counselling was unheard of
I have some sympathy for this man because of the physical consequences he is suffering but I think he made the decision to change his gender and should have accepted there was no going back.

Doodledog well said. ?

I think schools now are actively promoting all these ‘alternative’ genders. Acceptance is one thing. Be kind to one another etc. But now? The BBC staff have been told to be aware there are 150 (!) gender ‘types’.

Gawd help us. This is a ticking time bomb.

Indeed Doodledog .

Nobody is obliged to answer anyone else, but there is little point in being on a discussion board if all you do is post and run.