Preferred pronoun badges at the Halifax bank.

I'm confused. I thought this was a discussion about gender-neutral pronouns. As I read, it became about trans issues. I can see how that developed. I agree with the person who said,

In some scenarios that may mean keeping trans women and cis women separate and while I think that is uncomfortable and saddening, something that both trans women and cis women understand is the danger posed by men. Now we can and should keep trying to work on that as a society.

Now, a man seems to be taking the discussion in another direction entirely. What is going on? Hijacking? Can we get back please?

Message deleted by Gransnet for breaking our forum guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

No. Pushing women into hedges and satellites and ethnicity which have nothing to do with gender indentity and trans issues.

Feels like a man trans or otherwise in a women’s locker room who doesn’t understand what he’s talking about. Uncomfortable tbh. #genderneutral

Threads drift - it happens all the time.

Anyway, this didn't start about gender-neutral pronouns, it started about Halifax offering staff badges on which to display preferred pronouns, (which may be 'gender'-specific or not ), but which are virtually never necessary when the staff member can be seen by the customer, who can see if they are male or female, and when the staff members are wearing badges on which to display their name.

Maximillian

Do you mean me? If so I apologise, I was just following the conversation.

No, she didn't. There are two men posting in this thread and she didn't mean you.

It was, in the way that Sir Humphrey put it, the person whom I am in the habit of referring to using the perpendicular pronoun.

AnniePeg

No. Pushing women into hedges and satellites and ethnicity which have nothing to do with gender indentity and trans issues.

Feels like a man trans or otherwise in a women’s locker room who doesn’t understand what he’s talking about. Uncomfortable tbh. #genderneutral

Madam, I am not ... what you said, and I'm not in ... where you said either!

Though it is possible that I don't know what I am talking about.

I do think it goes a bit far when it is a course about starting a business and it is solely women who are allowed to attend, though I recognise that might be for some unspoken reason of which I am not aware and if that is the case I am open to changing my mind on that.

It's known that in mixed groups, men & boys speak more than woman & girls, and are given more attention by tutors (usually unintentionally on the tutor's part).
Women who have experienced this for their whole lives may be reluctant to participate more, while in mixed groups. So a women-only group could be a good way to encourage them.
Obviously that would only be needed occasionally as it's not a requirement for safety or dignity.
Also obviously, any 'women-only' event will be open to male people who identify as women.

AnniePeg if you feel there is more to be said about the original topic, please do so.

To revert to the OP for a moment, I cannot understand why Halifax customers need to be told how the counter staff wish to be referred to in the third person, when they will simply address each other in the second, as 'you'. Nor would I expect the customers to be concerned about the sex or gender of whoever is serving them. Would it help Halifax staff if customers wore pronoun badges as well?

Addressing someone else in the third person used to be an elaborately respectful style of speech in German a couple of centuries ago; I don't suppose this is what the Halifax had in mind, but who can be sure, these days?

Agreed, grumppa. I don't understand why it matters on emails either, but there you are.

I have no objection to people doing it if it makes them happy, but I don't like compulsion in these things, and am uneasy when companies make a fuss about them, as it can easily reach a point where employees who don't volunteer are seen to be making a statement. At my age and stage of career (ie just working when I want to), I can easily opt out, and could be bolshy if pressed for a reason; but not everyone is in that position, and I know colleagues who are still career building can find it difficult to say no.

grumppa

To revert to the OP for a moment, I cannot understand why Halifax customers need to be told how the counter staff wish to be referred to in the third person, when they will simply address each other in the second, as 'you'. Nor would I expect the customers to be concerned about the sex or gender of whoever is serving them. Would it help Halifax staff if customers wore pronoun badges as well?

Addressing someone else in the third person used to be an elaborately respectful style of speech in German a couple of centuries ago; I don't suppose this is what the Halifax had in mind, but who can be sure, these days?

Suppose you wanted to complain about (or praise) a member of staff you'd had dealings with grumpa wouldn't you need a pronoun then?

Glorianny

grumppa

To revert to the OP for a moment, I cannot understand why Halifax customers need to be told how the counter staff wish to be referred to in the third person, when they will simply address each other in the second, as 'you'. Nor would I expect the customers to be concerned about the sex or gender of whoever is serving them. Would it help Halifax staff if customers wore pronoun badges as well?

Addressing someone else in the third person used to be an elaborately respectful style of speech in German a couple of centuries ago; I don't suppose this is what the Halifax had in mind, but who can be sure, these days?

Suppose you wanted to complain about (or praise) a member of staff you'd had dealings with grumpa wouldn't you need a pronoun then?

Not if their given/christian/first (I feel I have to hedge my bets here) name is on their badge. Or have I missed something?

If Halifax are really asking staff to wear badges the better to help customers complain, it doesn't say a lot for their customer service (or employee relations!). What about the ones who don't 'volunteer' to wear pronoun badges? Are they not to be complained about?

No, AcornFairy. You are on the money .

Spot on AcornFairy. If a member of staff is wearing a badge with their name, why it is necessary for them to also state their preferred pronoun, when it will be their name that would be used?

Generally, I only feel the need to complain when exasperated after dealing with customer services by telephone. How would that work?

FarNorth

^I do think it goes a bit far when it is a course about starting a business and it is solely women who are allowed to attend, though I recognise that might be for some unspoken reason of which I am not aware and if that is the case I am open to changing my mind on that.^

It's known that in mixed groups, men & boys speak more than woman & girls, and are given more attention by tutors (usually unintentionally on the tutor's part).
Women who have experienced this for their whole lives may be reluctant to participate more, while in mixed groups. So a women-only group could be a good way to encourage them.
Obviously that would only be needed occasionally as it's not a requirement for safety or dignity.
Also obviously, any 'women-only' event will be open to male people who identify as women.

Thank you for explaining.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202207/medium-756860-229497ec-e1d6-11ec-8bdd-c253e043f5f0.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202207/medium-212085-57032849-10751871-image-a-3-1650906065881.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202207/medium-450570-fos6df6aiamp0ku.jpeg

If I wanted to comment about a staff member who looked like any of these people, I would not be saying 'she' helped me a lot, whatever might be written on their badge.
I would use 'they/them/their' or 'person' to refer to them.

Don't tell me I'm policing appearance. I don't care about their actual presentation and it's clear they are all male people.

grumppa

Generally, I only feel the need to complain when exasperated after dealing with customer services by telephone. How would that work?

All calls could be answered with:
'Hello, you are through to Acme Widgets Limited, Birkenhead branch. Thank you for calling. How are you today? Just to let you know - your call may be recorded for training purposes, and I'll need to take some details for security, so if you could have your account number, postcode, date of birth, password, the name of your first pet, and your mother's maiden name and Co-op Divvy number handy, that would be great. You are speaking to Delilah, call operator number 1234, pronouns I/she/her, 'cis' female designation. Now, how may I help you? Hello? Are you still there, caller?

Isn't it funny the lengths some people will go to to show that they will never, could never, couldn't possibly need to know anyone's chosen pronoun. When it is absolutely obvious that we all use pronouns all the time, because strange as it may seem we all sometimes speak about someone rather than to them and it is simply thoughtful and good mannered to use the pronoun they prefer. So if it is "I was contacted by Sam about my account could I see him?" or "Your employee Sam was not at all helpful when I spoke to her last week." Pronouns are going to get in there.
But it is fun watching the lengths some go to to prove they will never use them!

You missed your chance there Doodledog

Delilah could have stated being in a call centre in Lubbock, Texas and the call was being relayed to you via a satellite in geosynchronous orbit.

StarDreamer

You missed your chance there Doodledog

Delilah could have stated being in a call centre in Lubbock, Texas and the call was being relayed to you via a satellite in geosynchronous orbit.

?

Isn’t it funny how we are stuck in the 70s repeating the way gay people were discriminated against, and how we will have to resort to inspecting masculine-looking women who are mistaken for men? ?

What is happening?

VioletSky

What is happening?

Basically, some elderly people are having a natter.