Preferred pronoun badges at the Halifax bank.

There is no understanding and leniency in the courtroom when dealing with trauma victims which is why women who are victims have had to refer to their male assailant as 'she' because that is now how they are identifying.

It has absolutely nothing to do with being innocent until proven guilty either. A woman referring to her male assailant as them or they isn't going to persuade a jury to lean toward a guilty verdict anymore than it would encourage them to lean toward a verdict of innocent.

During the many threads here on GN about this subject, I have yet to see anyone post "all trans women".

Ilovecheese I am not going to go to such great lengths to show that those of us who use "men" in plural form categorically do not mean " all men" and then be OK with the "all transwomen" rhetoric.

I have clearly said from the beginning of these threads:

I understand why women don't feel safe and need safe spaces.

I understand that a very few " transwomen" do not have genuine gender dysphoria and instead either fetishise women or use legislation to attack and endanger women.

I believe that no victim should need to use their attackers chosen pronouns, although they may find they need to use " them or they" just because our law system states that a person is innocent until proven guilty and that matters. However these needs to be understanding and leniency in the courtroom when dealing with trauma victims.

However, men are in a position to police each other...they can tell each other that behaviour is not OK, they are not a marginalised group as the male sex.

I don't ask trans people to do the same and police extreme views when hate crime is so high and outing themselves as trans, may put them in danger.

I don't know what you mean VioletSky. How can we choose to police the "some men" if we don't know who they are?
But I think something that might give us a clue is if they are ignoring how we feel about them being in places where we are undressed or otherwise vulnerable.
I am not really bothered about the bank pronouns but I am bothered about the way that banks behave in general and them forking out for a few name tags doesn't change my mind.

Yes Violetsky, a policing of the actions of some men would be very welcome. Women have never felt fully safe I think, and the same goes for many other groups - teenage boys involved in gangs, knife crime, just at school where teasing is rife for one.
But language is a powerful tool in framing how people think about each other.

The Halifax is not alone in making the importance of preferred pronouns explicit. I have just received an email from someone at my local council with her preferred pronouns after her name. So helpful to have things crystal clear.

OK let's have this conversation.

Dangers imposed by men, my words, meant in plural form and quite commonly used but let's go a bit deeper.

Almost every woman has had a bad experience with a man. Almost every woman has experienced sexism. Almost every woman had been touched when they didn't want to be or experienced unwanted advances. Far too many have experienced abuse. Some of us on many occasions.

The result is we don't know if we are safe anymore. We don't know if we are safe walking or exercising alone. We don't know if we are safe meeting for a date We don't know if we are safe inviting someone home for the first time. We don't know if we are safe if a tradesman enters the house.

Isn't that far more worth several comments than complaining because you aren't sure a woman means "men" plural because you haven't taken the time to look around yourself at the wives, mothers and grandmothers here who obviously enjoy family life and if that family isn't a mother and father, it generally does involve sons and grandsons?

Surely the easiest solution to "not all men" isn't policing language because of your own perception of what other people mean but actually policing the "some men" responsible for making far too many women feel unsafe and the effect that had on you.

VioletSky

What is happening?

Basically, some elderly people are having a natter.

What is happening?

Isn’t it funny how we are stuck in the 70s repeating the way gay people were discriminated against, and how we will have to resort to inspecting masculine-looking women who are mistaken for men? ?

StarDreamer

You missed your chance there Doodledog

Delilah could have stated being in a call centre in Lubbock, Texas and the call was being relayed to you via a satellite in geosynchronous orbit.

?

You missed your chance there Doodledog

Delilah could have stated being in a call centre in Lubbock, Texas and the call was being relayed to you via a satellite in geosynchronous orbit.

Isn't it funny the lengths some people will go to to show that they will never, could never, couldn't possibly need to know anyone's chosen pronoun. When it is absolutely obvious that we all use pronouns all the time, because strange as it may seem we all sometimes speak about someone rather than to them and it is simply thoughtful and good mannered to use the pronoun they prefer. So if it is "I was contacted by Sam about my account could I see him?" or "Your employee Sam was not at all helpful when I spoke to her last week." Pronouns are going to get in there.
But it is fun watching the lengths some go to to prove they will never use them!

grumppa

Generally, I only feel the need to complain when exasperated after dealing with customer services by telephone. How would that work?

All calls could be answered with:
'Hello, you are through to Acme Widgets Limited, Birkenhead branch. Thank you for calling. How are you today? Just to let you know - your call may be recorded for training purposes, and I'll need to take some details for security, so if you could have your account number, postcode, date of birth, password, the name of your first pet, and your mother's maiden name and Co-op Divvy number handy, that would be great. You are speaking to Delilah, call operator number 1234, pronouns I/she/her, 'cis' female designation. Now, how may I help you? Hello? Are you still there, caller?

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202207/medium-756860-229497ec-e1d6-11ec-8bdd-c253e043f5f0.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202207/medium-212085-57032849-10751871-image-a-3-1650906065881.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202207/medium-450570-fos6df6aiamp0ku.jpeg

If I wanted to comment about a staff member who looked like any of these people, I would not be saying 'she' helped me a lot, whatever might be written on their badge.
I would use 'they/them/their' or 'person' to refer to them.

Don't tell me I'm policing appearance. I don't care about their actual presentation and it's clear they are all male people.

FarNorth

^I do think it goes a bit far when it is a course about starting a business and it is solely women who are allowed to attend, though I recognise that might be for some unspoken reason of which I am not aware and if that is the case I am open to changing my mind on that.^

It's known that in mixed groups, men & boys speak more than woman & girls, and are given more attention by tutors (usually unintentionally on the tutor's part).
Women who have experienced this for their whole lives may be reluctant to participate more, while in mixed groups. So a women-only group could be a good way to encourage them.
Obviously that would only be needed occasionally as it's not a requirement for safety or dignity.
Also obviously, any 'women-only' event will be open to male people who identify as women.

Thank you for explaining.

Generally, I only feel the need to complain when exasperated after dealing with customer services by telephone. How would that work?

Spot on AcornFairy. If a member of staff is wearing a badge with their name, why it is necessary for them to also state their preferred pronoun, when it will be their name that would be used?

No, AcornFairy. You are on the money .

If Halifax are really asking staff to wear badges the better to help customers complain, it doesn't say a lot for their customer service (or employee relations!). What about the ones who don't 'volunteer' to wear pronoun badges? Are they not to be complained about?

Glorianny

grumppa

To revert to the OP for a moment, I cannot understand why Halifax customers need to be told how the counter staff wish to be referred to in the third person, when they will simply address each other in the second, as 'you'. Nor would I expect the customers to be concerned about the sex or gender of whoever is serving them. Would it help Halifax staff if customers wore pronoun badges as well?

Addressing someone else in the third person used to be an elaborately respectful style of speech in German a couple of centuries ago; I don't suppose this is what the Halifax had in mind, but who can be sure, these days?

Suppose you wanted to complain about (or praise) a member of staff you'd had dealings with grumpa wouldn't you need a pronoun then?

Not if their given/christian/first (I feel I have to hedge my bets here) name is on their badge. Or have I missed something?

grumppa

To revert to the OP for a moment, I cannot understand why Halifax customers need to be told how the counter staff wish to be referred to in the third person, when they will simply address each other in the second, as 'you'. Nor would I expect the customers to be concerned about the sex or gender of whoever is serving them. Would it help Halifax staff if customers wore pronoun badges as well?

Addressing someone else in the third person used to be an elaborately respectful style of speech in German a couple of centuries ago; I don't suppose this is what the Halifax had in mind, but who can be sure, these days?

Suppose you wanted to complain about (or praise) a member of staff you'd had dealings with grumpa wouldn't you need a pronoun then?

Agreed, grumppa. I don't understand why it matters on emails either, but there you are.

I have no objection to people doing it if it makes them happy, but I don't like compulsion in these things, and am uneasy when companies make a fuss about them, as it can easily reach a point where employees who don't volunteer are seen to be making a statement. At my age and stage of career (ie just working when I want to), I can easily opt out, and could be bolshy if pressed for a reason; but not everyone is in that position, and I know colleagues who are still career building can find it difficult to say no.

To revert to the OP for a moment, I cannot understand why Halifax customers need to be told how the counter staff wish to be referred to in the third person, when they will simply address each other in the second, as 'you'. Nor would I expect the customers to be concerned about the sex or gender of whoever is serving them. Would it help Halifax staff if customers wore pronoun badges as well?

Addressing someone else in the third person used to be an elaborately respectful style of speech in German a couple of centuries ago; I don't suppose this is what the Halifax had in mind, but who can be sure, these days?

AnniePeg if you feel there is more to be said about the original topic, please do so.

I do think it goes a bit far when it is a course about starting a business and it is solely women who are allowed to attend, though I recognise that might be for some unspoken reason of which I am not aware and if that is the case I am open to changing my mind on that.

It's known that in mixed groups, men & boys speak more than woman & girls, and are given more attention by tutors (usually unintentionally on the tutor's part).
Women who have experienced this for their whole lives may be reluctant to participate more, while in mixed groups. So a women-only group could be a good way to encourage them.
Obviously that would only be needed occasionally as it's not a requirement for safety or dignity.
Also obviously, any 'women-only' event will be open to male people who identify as women.

AnniePeg

No. Pushing women into hedges and satellites and ethnicity which have nothing to do with gender indentity and trans issues.

Feels like a man trans or otherwise in a women’s locker room who doesn’t understand what he’s talking about. Uncomfortable tbh. #genderneutral

Madam, I am not ... what you said, and I'm not in ... where you said either!

Though it is possible that I don't know what I am talking about.