Preferred pronoun badges at the Halifax bank.

Yes I agree FarNorth to quote Nelson Mandela
“Our world is not divided by race colour gender or religion. Our world is divided into wise people and fools
And fools divide themselves by race colour gender or religion”

Stormystar

Good point Granny33 so as the Halifax reportedly hourly pay for women is 40.2% lower than for men. I’m wondering are all those transgenders who identify as women receiving the lower wage ?

Is it that women are getting a lower wage for the same job (unlikely, as that has been illegal for many years) or that the average wage of men is higher because there is a greater proportion of men in senior jobs (which there is)?

The reasons for the higher proportion of men are unlikely to come down to "men are better at the senior jobs" and are likely to include a lot of sociological factors.

Stormystar ??

Stormystar

Wow.
I had never seen that quote before so I looked for when it was said by Nelson Mandela.
It turns out that it is actually a quote from Mohamad Safa, a human rights activist.

Go Halifax!

I am happy to see a company that stands for their employees and do not follow blindly "the customer is always right"

Good example for inclusiveness in the workplace.

I was recently in a fast food restaurant and one male customer was very aggressive and abusive.
I was later told that he came everyday and he did the same thing every.single.day

I hoped the manager stood up for their employees instead of apologizing and even giving abusive customer a discount for "the inconvenience"

FarNorth your right, I misquoted Nelson Mandela, it’s a quote often wrongly attributed to him.

I've no objection to calling people their preferred pronouns in the Halifax; it's when they are working in rape crisis centres, and other women only spaces that I have a problem.

MissA general acceptance of wrong-sex pronouns in some situations makes it seem normal in others eg courts of law and the places you mention .

Trans people, in my opinion, should own their trans reality, present themselves however they like but not claim to be the opposite sex, especially in situations where sex is important.

Yes, that is my worry about accepting and using female pronouns for men who have self identified as such.
It then makes it a problem to say that it is only ok in particular settings.

This is the trouble - badges like this normalise so-called 'gender' identification, when by no means everyone believes that gender exists in this way.

Making the badges optional makes it look as though Halifax is being reasonable; but in reality it means that those who opt out are seen to be making a statement, when they shouldn't have to. Being gender critical is a protected belief, and people should not be forced into making declarations about something they don't believe in, any more than transpeople should have to shout about that, unless they want to do so, in which case a simple change of name would usually do it.

As I said upthread, if they are really concerned about being inclusive they could close the gap between women and men's pay.

Complete non issue.

I’ve just discovered I’m so out of time with the whole pronoun issue, there is a meta narrative I need to consider, because my grandchildren just told me about Neopronouns. Which are very explicitly not linked to gender, rather they disrupt the idea that you can make gender assumptions about a person based on their pronouns. It’s all become clear now if I see a man in the Halifax with a badge stating Elizabeth, she/ her etc. I must NOT assume it’s linked to his gender and call him her.

It's just become clear to me to watch where I bank.

Stormystar wrote It’s all become clear now if I see a man in the Halifax with a badge stating Elizabeth, she/ her etc. I must NOT assume it’s linked to his gender and call him her.

I am notunderstanding whether the call him her bit must or must not be done, as in whether the sentence means

So, is it

>? I must NOT assume it’s linked to his gender and must call him her.

or

>? I must NOT assume it’s linked to his gender and NOT call him her.

please?

If the second one, why is, er, the human, wearing a badge with the name Elizabeth on it? Is he declaring his love for Elizabeth?

Yes Stardreamer it’s very amusing and confusing , If neopronouns disrupt and subvert the idea of making no assumption of gender through pronouns Then we cannot trust in what the badge states and may fall into misgendering Elizabeth. Because Elizabeth could also be Agender, beyond gender, or both genders at the same time.

The bage literally states preferred pronouns.

If unsure, use they or them

It really isn't hard, we have always used they or them.

For example

"I asked them to use my preferred pronouns and they refused for absolutely no logical reason"

Or, having been assaulted by a male, I asked for a female to speak to, but I got 'them' instead, and was called a bigot.

Unfortunately not a joke MissA.

The preferred pronouns may not be related to a person's sex but are likely to be related to their gender - and that could be anything eg 'cakegender' 'meowgender'.

VS you know it hasn't been usual to use 'they' for a specific person, as in 'I saw Betty today and they told me about their bunions.'
If it looked like I might have pronoun problems, tho, I would opt for 'they' rather than use wrong-sex pronouns.

It really is confusing trying to remember it all.
I know people think it's a deliberate ploy to feign confusion, but I would find it hard to remember what I'm supposed to be calling someone.

I'm trying to follow the arguments but all I've really learned is that I'm a "silly old woman."

I shall stick to online banking, far safer ?

MissAdventure

Or, having been assaulted by a male, I asked for a female to speak to, but I got 'them' instead, and was called a bigot.

This is where you could ask for a cis female which would solve the problem but others are trying to make that an offensive term which is a shame because it would obviously make it easier for victims while not offending trans people...

We are not allowed solutions.

Which is why I abandon these threads after a while or...

I identify as trans-parent with the pronouns "who" and "where"

I think that the singular 'they' has pteviously been used instead of "he or she" in the sort of neutral context of having something like,

If someone is off-work sick they must get a sick note from the doctor after seven calendar days off-work.

Or,

The courier arrived while I was out and they left a card.

The singular 'they' used because the sicknote rule applies to both males and females equally, and the courier was not observed.

That usage seems to be a different usage from the use of 'they' as a chosen pronoun for oneself.

I always use expressions like "your colleague" in shops and banks because I always think saying "She" or "He told me or showed me" just sounds rude. Nothing to do with the gender, it just sounds very impersonal.

You’re right, StarDreamer - it’s a different usage.

VS, in MissA’s scenario, asking for a so-called ‘cis’ woman would not solve the problem, as she might be happy to speak to a transman or a female-bodied ‘gender-neutral’ person, neither of whom would identify as ‘cis’, and might be offended to be excluded. She might also prefer a feminist who would understand her fears of talking to a male (however he ‘identified’) and she might not answer to ‘cis’ either.

When ‘woman’ meant ‘adult human female’ she could just have asked to speak to a woman, and be done with it. She might have got someone called Geoff with a shaved head, an elfin goth called Star with their hair in their eyes or a matronly Gladys in a floral dress and cardigan, but she’d know she was speaking to a woman, which is what she asked for.

Complicated, isn’t it?