Preferred pronoun badges at the Halifax bank.

This discussion is as usual with these threads beginning
to involve only transwomen. But it isn't just transwomen who want to see the correct pronoun used. Transmen and non-binary people are also involved. Non -binary people in particular find that people are confused and do not know how to refer to them. Perhaps if those who only see one set of people, whenever these things are referred to, could realise all sorts of people are involved in these things, they could stop obsessing about it all. Because it isn't all about transwomen and some purely imaginary threat.

FarNorth

No-one thinks they are funny, btw. 'Cartoon' refers to the style of drawing.

Exactly. The first one is an example of what AHF are already expected to accept. Remember the TW appointed to a rape counselling position?
The so called TW who demanded access to that store changing room?
The cheating TW who want to enter female sports because they can be sure of winning?
and that’s just a few.
The second portrays what females are afraid of. They will be called transphobic for refusing to be examined by a TW.
If anyone has missed the third event, then just Google males in female prisons.

VS says Because people will discriminate and that is unlawful
But it seems it’s not unlawful to discriminate against female rights or needs.
We have been frequently told that trans-have existed for ages. Strange that they’re really only noticeable because of the few who discriminate against females and their misogynistic supporters.

Pronouns matter to lots of people, they just don't realise it matters because it hasn't been denied to them.

Imagine for a moment if someone called you "it". It would be dehumanising, objectifying and hurtful. That is how it feels using the wrong pronouns to another person. Now it can and does accidentally go wrong and most of us would be horrified if we misgendered a cis person... all we need to do is apply that across the board.

Thankfully, people are choosing to help us as well as themselves by making their pronouns visible where possible.

That is a common sense move. It won't prevent all mistakes but it will help. It won't prevent those who deliberately misgender but it will draw attention to the issue.

Mollygo I don't discriminate against women, It is unlawful which is why women are protected under the equality act and why trans people are also protected, women have been granted rights to ensure they have safe spaces. I don't need a law to agree that is right.

Both I and others have put forward many ideas about how we ensure that happens, that inclusive language is in place and there are options to ensure that is enforced. In some scenarios that may mean keeping trans women and cis women separate and while I think that is uncomfortable and saddening, something that both trans women and cis women understand is the danger posed by men. Now we can and should keep trying to work on that as a society.

This could obviously be better, quicker and more easily working together (which is happening in some circles btw) and it is horrifying to me that any danger could come to trans women or cis women (due to ally status or simply looking too masculine) by other women....

To me that is simply a logical stance to the existence of hundreds of thousands of trans people in the UK alone...

Vs nailed it

"Pronouns matter to lots of people, they just don't realise it matters because it hasn't been denied to them."

I am aChange the word pronoun for rights

Pressed post by mistake

I am changing her post as it applies to rights too

Hithere

Pressed post by mistake

I am changing her post as it applies to rights too

Truth

VioletSky

I did spend precious time typing a response but then I deleted it

?

VioletSky

Mollygo I don't discriminate against women, It is unlawful which is why women are protected under the equality act and why trans people are also protected, women have been granted rights to ensure they have safe spaces. I don't need a law to agree that is right.

Both I and others have put forward many ideas about how we ensure that happens, that inclusive language is in place and there are options to ensure that is enforced. In some scenarios that may mean keeping trans women and cis women separate and while I think that is uncomfortable and saddening, something that both trans women and cis women understand is the danger posed by men. Now we can and should keep trying to work on that as a society.

This could obviously be better, quicker and more easily working together (which is happening in some circles btw) and it is horrifying to me that any danger could come to trans women or cis women (due to ally status or simply looking too masculine) by other women....

To me that is simply a logical stance to the existence of hundreds of thousands of trans people in the UK alone...

Could you please consider using the phrase "some men" rather then just the word "men" when writing about the danger to women?

Stardreamer I am simply using it as a plural...

. Sorry but so funny.

VioletSky

Stardreamer I am simply using it as a plural...

Thank you for replying.

Perhaps you would consider including the word "some" in the future.

Otherwise what you write can give the impression that you mean all men.

It could make you look as if you are ranting about Men! Men! MEN!!!!! and that could lessen the credibility of what you are writing.

Could you please consider using the phrase "some men" rather then just the word "men" when writing about the danger to women?

Gender critical people usually do this, or say 'abusive men' or 'predatory men'.

VS, however, seems not to be interested in how to meet people's preferences on this sort of thing ?

VioletSky

Mollygo I don't discriminate against women.
I didn’t say you did.

Really?

Nice excuse for an attack by other women (plural) who absolutely know I don't, think or mean "all men" by using men as a plural.

stardreamer I will try to say some even when I mean men who impose danger only.

Now that is out the way do you have anything to add on the rest of my comment?

Since you ask, my comment is that I consider it wrong that anyone is put in a sitution of being fearful or embarrassed.

I am male, I have no wish to be female. That does not mean that I think "Ugh, women!", not at all.

I know, and have known, many women, in various contexts.

Some are kind and lovely.

I feel that it should be a two way street. Most men are respectful to women, most women do not try to take advantage of that respect.

There seems to be, from some women, indignation if a man acts towards her in a traditional courteous way, such as holding a door open for her.

It always seemed to be that a man would hold open a door, or if approaching an open doorway from opposite directions, wait and let her through first, in either case she would say "Thank you" as she proceeded, two way courtesy.

Now it seems, some women would regard that as condescending, treating her as an inferior , maybe sigh and regard the courteous gentleman as a silly old fool.

A lot of discussion about all of this seems to come down to the female changing room issues. That affects women.

How about considering a situation that could affect men - a social event - the progressive barn dance.

That is some interesting phrasing...

Some people are respectful (to those who deserve it) how is respect taken advantage of? Surely we would have no respect for individuals who take advantage?

I also hold doors open, for the person behind me or anyone looking like it would be helpful to wait for them to catch up. I don't really expect anything, not even a thanks. For me, it is more about not letting the door go in someone's face... I should be thanked for not bashing people in the face with a door? Of course I smile or say thanks but it doesn't seem like a particularly special thing to do...

What are you expecting stardreamer?

What would you do if we were walking towards each other and I got there first and held the door for you?

I may be misunderstanding your point StarDancer; but I think that the reason a lot of people concentrate on transwomen (ie men) being in women's spaces is because on the whole men are stronger than women. A man in a changing room where women and girls are undressed is in a far stronger position (should he wish to assault a woman or girl) than a woman with similar intent would have in a men's changing room.

I'm not sure how to apply that to a barn dance, but I think that the principles would apply.

(It shouldn't need saying, but before anyone 'corrects' me, I feel the need to say that that is a generalisation, and of course I am not implying that all men (whether trans or otherwise) would wish to assault women.)

Sorry - StarDreamer - I got your name wrong by mistake.

Trans women were always in the women's changing rooms and toilets.

It is just a problem now people know that....

Now we have masculine appearing women and butch kesbians taking the brunt of (some) women's aggression in toilets and trans women are largely carrying on as normal.

I added the some after preview because even though I meant women plural not all women... you just never know eh

It is a problem now because self-identification of sex has become accepted, thanks to widespread training from Stonewall which misrepresented the legislation of the Equality Act.

Huge numbers of situations which used to be female-only, with a very rare appearance of a transwoman, are now accepting of any man's choice to self-identity as a woman.

This includes women's hospital wards - Baroness Emma Nicholson has spoken in the House of Lords of a woman who was raped by a trans-identifying male in a female ward.
The Baroness says she has had many more such instances reported to her - all verified.

It seems unlikely that masculine appearing women are being harassed while all transwomen are managing to pass as feminine appearing women.
Do you have knowledge of that happening?

Doodledog

I may be misunderstanding your point StarDancer; but I think that the reason a lot of people concentrate on transwomen (ie men) being in women's spaces is because on the whole men are stronger than women. A man in a changing room where women and girls are undressed is in a far stronger position (should he wish to assault a woman or girl) than a woman with similar intent would have in a men's changing room.

I'm not sure how to apply that to a barn dance, but I think that the principles would apply.

(It shouldn't need saying, but before anyone 'corrects' me, I feel the need to say that that is a generalisation, and of course I am not implying that all men (whether trans or otherwise) would wish to assault women.)

Oh! It appears that I have misunderstood - I thought the changing room issue was what the men might see and what the women would have to put up with seeing.

What I was meaning about the barn dance is that traditionally at dancing events, each man dances with a woman, yet it sometimes happened that two women danced together if there were more women than men there and that was just accepted. However men did not dance together even if there were not enough women present.

LINK > A barn dance (9 minutes)

Hopefully we can all join in and sing and be happy.

FarNorth

It seems unlikely that masculine appearing women are being harassed while all transwomen are managing to pass as feminine appearing women.
Do you have knowledge of that happening?

I'm not sure of the politest way to explain what I mean, I don't want to speak for trans people or be offensive

Do you know what passing means? Basically, it means, pass as a woman visually.

Well sadly a lot of trans people I speak to would not use the correct shared public bathroom for their gender unless they felt like they "pass".

It's hard to out into words. It makes me incredibly sad that we would assume anything about anyone based on appearance