Why is Keir Starmer trying to put so many voters off?

MaizieD

This analysis from the Byline Times of an opinion poll on voter's attitudes to Brexit is interesting. It might suggest that Starmer has taken the wrong line.

OTOH Any sniff of even joining the Single Market and the Customs Union would have the right wing press utterly crucifying him. And they, I'm sure I don't have to remind you, have a much larger combined circulation than does the 'progressive' press.

bylinetimes.com/2022/07/04/why-brexit-is-no-longer-boris-johnsons-superpower/

I think this is a reasonable analysis of the Byline Times poll, Maizie.

In short: Brexit is no longer the binding force that it was in 2019 among Leave voters, whereas it is still a unifying issue among those who voted Remain.

The polling also shows that Mr Brexit, Boris Johnson, no longer draws political strength from his association with the project.

MaizieD

WRT 'renegotiating' with the EU, they are somewhat familiar with Starmer as Labour had some sessions at Brussels after the referendum. (I have a feeling that Starmer has been to Brussels since being elected as LP leader, but I might be dreaming that). They must know that he is a completely different calibre of politician from Johnson.

They must know that he is a completely different calibre of politician from Johnson.

I think they do - because he is.

And let's face it - though her deal was a disaster - even Theresa May was of a different calibre...

Glorianny

I don't think being open to something is the same as insisting someone has sex with anyone or denigrating them because they haven't. It's simply saying you could try it. Just as someone else might say try sex with another woman you might like it .
Quite how that translates as it being a duty I don't know. Nor is it proscribing anything.
If I say "you should try Xs chocolate it's delicious." you don't have to do it.

My relationship with a brand of chocolate is quite different from my relationship with another human being.

If I casually try your recommended brand of chocolate and don't like it, there's no harm done. To either me or the chocolate.

If I instinctively do not want sex with a particular person - for whatever reason - but am persuaded by you that I should "try it" because I might "like it"... and I don't like it - then there's huge potential for distress for both parties.

Some lesbians have been persuaded and coerced into having sex with transwomen on the basis that it is transphobic not to do so.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

I don't think your comparison works.

WRT 'renegotiating' with the EU, they are somewhat familiar with Starmer as Labour had some sessions at Brussels after the referendum. (I have a feeling that Starmer has been to Brussels since being elected as LP leader, but I might be dreaming that). They must know that he is a completely different calibre of politician from Johnson.

This analysis from the Byline Times of an opinion poll on voter's attitudes to Brexit is interesting. It might suggest that Starmer has taken the wrong line.

OTOH Any sniff of even joining the Single Market and the Customs Union would have the right wing press utterly crucifying him. And they, I'm sure I don't have to remind you, have a much larger combined circulation than does the 'progressive' press.

bylinetimes.com/2022/07/04/why-brexit-is-no-longer-boris-johnsons-superpower/

a Labour Government will renegotiate a very different relationship with our nearest and most important trading partners; a relationship based on respect—respect that is so sorely missing in the way that the current Government treats those partners—and a relationship that will achieve the closest possible frictionless trade for businesses across the United Kingdom and here in Wales.

Completely reasonable and sensible. I want this.

I wondered what Mark Drakeford had to say about Keir Starmer’s statement, given that he was a remainer himself. Apologies for the length, but I think it’s a good summary of why Starmer has taken the approach he has:

‘The well has been poisoned in the relationship between the United Kingdom and the European Union, and continues to be poisoned by the fact that we have a Government that's prepared to breach international law and to override the agreements it itself signed up to and commended to people as a deal that they should vote for in a general election. The notion that you could simply rejoin something that has moved on, and where the invitation to rejoin does not exist, is not the basis for a sensible policy.

"What Keir Starmer set out yesterday was a different approach in which a Labour Government will renegotiate a very different relationship with our nearest and most important trading partners; a relationship based on respect—respect that is so sorely missing in the way that the current Government treats those partners—and a relationship that will achieve the closest possible frictionless trade for businesses across the United Kingdom and here in Wales. That is a realistic possibility. The idea that, in a debating-society sense, we should say that we should rejoin something that's no longer available for us to join does not seem to me to be the sort of policy that would actually make the difference we'd like to make."

paddyann54

the SNP dont want a coalition with labour ,its the hypocrisy of Sarwar saying no coalitions when his councils are joining forces with the tories who are supposed to be their polar opposites .Labour is dead here ,ONE MP in WM for now ,the tories haven't had a majority vote since 1955 that IS Nineteen Fifty Five Its the areas like the borders that still return a tory ,maybe the English inhabitants to blame?

You didn’t answer my previous question on the thread about this paddyann54. I asked you why your statements contradicted the latest poll results, are you able to respond?

Now I really am lost.

Lurpak is now so expensive it has to be security tagged. So any minute now Labour is going to announce its big plan to deal with the rising cost of butter by offering a means-tested 5% off one-time voucher for the poorest 10% of households.

Labour has a 5-point plan to deal with the cost of butter

1. Less generous spreading
2. Reduce size of a bread slice
3. British Butter
4. Security
5. Grow the economy.

Men however they present have always tried to ask lesbians to have sex with them. It homophobic behaviour that's gone on forever.

Transwomen are men. They are of the Male sex.

Galaxy

Crikey are we still rolling out the lesbians should try sex with men thing.

Oh good try Galaxy butI believe it was transwomen being discussed. Now you may believe transwomen are men, but obviously it wasn't men who were saying that, so by not using the appropriate term you are simply muddying the water. Unless you actually think that men are saying lesbians should try sex with them???
Shows how important using the correct term is doesn't it.

Crikey are we still rolling out the lesbians should try sex with men thing.

It is common parlance to recommend something to someone by saying 'This is really good, you really should try it.' How anyone could think that puts pressure on the person spoken to to do something, totally defeats me.

It is just the ordinary use of the English language.

And does anyone ever recommend something but not intend you to try it? After all isn't that the whole purpose of a recommendation? Are we not to recommend anything to anyone?

Callistemon21

You obviously have no idea what I mean!

If you don't understand the difference then it's no good anyone trying to explain.

I doubt if anyone else does and if it's so difficult you can't explain it then the majority of people won't get it either, so it would seem to be a purely personal viewpoint. You may feel like that, it doesn't mean the majority do.

You obviously have no idea what I mean!

If you don't understand the difference then it's no good anyone trying to explain.

Callistemon21

^If I say "you should try Xs chocolate it's delicious." you don't have to do it^

But that implies someone ought to try it.
In fact, if someone told me I should try something it would come across as an attempt to control, not something offered as a choice I might like to consider.

So are we never going to recommend anything to anyone because they might construe it as meaning they had to do it? Honestly it's ridiculous. Are you really saying when we find something good we have to say to our friends . "There's this chocolate and I think it's really nice and there is a strong possibility that you might like it, but don't think I am trying to influence you" ? instead of "God! this chocolate's good, Try some"

the SNP dont want a coalition with labour ,its the hypocrisy of Sarwar saying no coalitions when his councils are joining forces with the tories who are supposed to be their polar opposites .Labour is dead here ,ONE MP in WM for now ,the tories haven't had a majority vote since 1955 that IS Nineteen Fifty Five Its the areas like the borders that still return a tory ,maybe the English inhabitants to blame?

If I say "you should try Xs chocolate it's delicious." you don't have to do it

But that implies someone ought to try it.
In fact, if someone told me I should try something it would come across as an attempt to control, not something offered as a choice I might like to consider.

Dickens

Glorianny

Some transwomen have said lesbians should be open to relationships with them.

No-one - absolutely NO-ONE - should be "open" to have a relationship with anyone because they belong to a particular demographic.

Sex is not a duty, it's not obligatory. You have a relationship with someone because you like / 'fancy' them.

It's like being told (by a Guardian journalist) that you are inherently racist because you haven't had sex with a black person - the assumption being that you haven't included this demographic on your list of 'preferred' partners.

Human attraction to another human doesn't work like that. You cannot proscribe who should be attracted to whom.

I don't think being open to something is the same as insisting someone has sex with anyone or denigrating them because they haven't. It's simply saying you could try it. Just as someone else might say try sex with another woman you might like it .
Quite how that translates as it being a duty I don't know. Nor is it proscribing anything.
If I say "you should try Xs chocolate it's delicious." you don't have to do it.

Glorianny

Some transwomen have said lesbians should be open to relationships with them.

No-one - absolutely NO-ONE - should be "open" to have a relationship with anyone because they belong to a particular demographic.

Sex is not a duty, it's not obligatory. You have a relationship with someone because you like / 'fancy' them.

It's like being told (by a Guardian journalist) that you are inherently racist because you haven't had sex with a black person - the assumption being that you haven't included this demographic on your list of 'preferred' partners.

Human attraction to another human doesn't work like that. You cannot proscribe who should be attracted to whom.

Grany Corbyn refused to take part in the party leaders debate re the referendum , he went on holiday

Please can we be clear that rejoining the EU and aligning ourselves with the single market and the customs union are NOT the same thing. The horse which has bolted is rejoining the EU.