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Woke up this morning ... morphing to discussion on Heads of State.

(140 Posts)
DaisyAnne Fri 08-Jul-22 07:53:42

It's a bit like that moment when you wake up and realise the dreadful thing you aren't ready for, really did happen yesterday - except in reverse. Bunter didn't leave.

He is still Prime Minister and worse, he has yet again found someone else to blame. He points to "The Herd" - the group of ineffectuals that those being polite still call the Conservative Party. He is having his 'Trump' moment and blaming others for his ejection from power.

No apology, no acceptance he did anything wrong, just hubris.

As it seems the Tories cannot do any more than they have so far managed, to stop this man's destruction of democracy.

We need to have an election.

We need him out, gone and, I would hope, locked up.

widgeon3 Fri 08-Jul-22 12:13:29

I'm no apologist for BOJO but wonder who all the perfect politicians whom he replaced were

I see that John Major, Tony Blair, Cameron, Brown of recent memory have all been pronouncing on my behalf as if they had never gone out of office. Several of these..... +others lib dem conservative and labour all took steps which were not good for my country.

Not sure about democracy but I do not feel represented. Starmer, you might say? He is, at present, more confident and self righteous but I do believe there is some sort of police report on his behaviour also outstanding

Glorianny Fri 08-Jul-22 12:32:12

Mamie

*Plus he doesn't have Boris's charm*.
I would think most people of probity, morality and common sense would run a mile from "Boris's charm".
Personally I think he has more of the snake than the charmer.

It's a mistake to think because someone has been caught out misbehaving they are totally useless. There is no doubt Boris has charm. Even very left wing people I know who have met him will tell you he has appeal, because when introduced, he shakes your hand, looks you right in the eye, and always remembers your name. It was underestimating his appeal that lost Labour so many votes.

nexus63 Fri 08-Jul-22 12:46:48

i am glad he is going but on the other hand i feel a little bit sorry for him, he got his dream job but did not know how to do it. he is finished in politics, can't see him sitting on the back benches, what i don't understand is, he is a well educated man and to some a nice person. a new leader is not going to make much difference as the damaged to the party is already done....but what do i know, i am scottish and with regards to westminster we are just the people "up there"...lol

Galaxy Fri 08-Jul-22 12:48:22

Yes lots of deeply unpleasant and dangerous people have charm.

Dickens Fri 08-Jul-22 15:28:31

Galaxy

Yes lots of deeply unpleasant and dangerous people have charm.

Charm is the great English blight. It does not exist outside these damp islands. It spots and kills anything it touches. It kills love; it kills art; I greatly fear, my dear Charles, it has killed you.”

—Anthony Blanche to Charles Ryder in Evelyn Waugh's "Brideshead Revisited" (1945)

Bossyrossy Fri 08-Jul-22 15:34:56

Perhaps whoever paid for the wallpaper will pay for the wedding bash.

Ailidh Fri 08-Jul-22 15:43:41

Dickens

Galaxy

Yes lots of deeply unpleasant and dangerous people have charm.

Charm is the great English blight. It does not exist outside these damp islands. It spots and kills anything it touches. It kills love; it kills art; I greatly fear, my dear Charles, it has killed you.”

—Anthony Blanche to Charles Ryder in Evelyn Waugh's "Brideshead Revisited" (1945)

I enjoyed the quote.

Henceforth I shall name Mr. Johnson "The great English blight".

Pammie1 Fri 08-Jul-22 15:48:47

Grammaretto

Whose wedding is it? Angela Raynor mentioned it on Radio 4 this morning. Am I invited?

His own to Carrie - supposed to be at Chequers, late summer, postponed from the pandemic. Presumably they were too busy having other parties to shoehorn this one in !!

Pammie1 Fri 08-Jul-22 15:49:43

Ailidh

Dickens

Galaxy

Yes lots of deeply unpleasant and dangerous people have charm.

Charm is the great English blight. It does not exist outside these damp islands. It spots and kills anything it touches. It kills love; it kills art; I greatly fear, my dear Charles, it has killed you.”

—Anthony Blanche to Charles Ryder in Evelyn Waugh's "Brideshead Revisited" (1945)

I enjoyed the quote.

Henceforth I shall name Mr. Johnson "The great English blight".

I could think of another word to replace ‘blight’.

Dickens Fri 08-Jul-22 16:01:09

Ailidh

I enjoyed the quote.

Henceforth I shall name Mr. Johnson "The great English blight".

grin

MaizieD Fri 08-Jul-22 16:10:39

From Grany's post at 12.07

A parliamentary system should put parliament at the centre, accountable only to the voters. In the UK parliament is weak in the face of government power, and that's largely because of the Crown and the monarchy.

The Crown gives the government huge powers to take decisions without parliament or to control parliamentary business, whether that's deciding when parliament will be running or having the power to ensure proposed laws they disagree with have little chance of getting passed.

Parliament is weak in the face of government, largely there to do what it's told. But in terms of the power of make laws, change our constitution and determine our rights, parliament is all powerful.

In the UK parliament is sovereign, which means it's the highest power in the land. No court can overturn a decision made by parliament, no treaty can override laws passed by parliament. A court could rule that a law conflicts with a treaty, or with another law, but a judge can't override or scrap that law.

That's not how a democracy should work. Parliament is there to work for us, not to rule over us. And given the control government has over parliament, the current constitution ends up concentrating huge amounts of power in the hands of the Prime Minister and government ministers.

In terms of domestic law the British government is one of the most powerful in the democratic world.

A real parliamentary democracy
The answer to this is simple enough. There's no need to throw the whole constitution out the window. We just need to make every part of it more democratic and re-balance power between people, parliament and government. Here's how.

Can I ask you if you wrote this , or have you copied it from an article?

Because, I'm sorry, but it is a real muddle and displays misunderstandings and misinterpretations of how our constitution works.

DaisyAnne Fri 08-Jul-22 21:07:17

It's here Maizie [https://www.republic.org.uk/parliamentary_republics under the title "Parliamentary Republics"]] on the website of "Republic".

I'm afraid I am rapidly getting to the stage where I will not reply to posts represented as the posters when they are not and going unsourced. It's plagiarism. It also often means people don't understand the crux of what they are posting as their personal views.

DaisyAnne Fri 08-Jul-22 21:09:36

Try again. www.republic.org.uk/parliamentary_republics

Grany Fri 08-Jul-22 21:49:49

MaizieD Yes I copied it from Republic website as DaisyAnne asked for what parliment would do in this current crisis involving Johnson and not to put blame on the monarchy constitution or words to that affect, I don't know how parliment or government works, the best would be to show how it works and what could be improved from thoses that can explain it best.

That's all no offence meant.

Grany Sat 09-Jul-22 18:32:33

MaizieD

From Grany's post at 12.07

A parliamentary system should put parliament at the centre, accountable only to the voters. In the UK parliament is weak in the face of government power, and that's largely because of the Crown and the monarchy.

The Crown gives the government huge powers to take decisions without parliament or to control parliamentary business, whether that's deciding when parliament will be running or having the power to ensure proposed laws they disagree with have little chance of getting passed.

Parliament is weak in the face of government, largely there to do what it's told. But in terms of the power of make laws, change our constitution and determine our rights, parliament is all powerful.

In the UK parliament is sovereign, which means it's the highest power in the land. No court can overturn a decision made by parliament, no treaty can override laws passed by parliament. A court could rule that a law conflicts with a treaty, or with another law, but a judge can't override or scrap that law.

That's not how a democracy should work. Parliament is there to work for us, not to rule over us. And given the control government has over parliament, the current constitution ends up concentrating huge amounts of power in the hands of the Prime Minister and government ministers.

In terms of domestic law the British government is one of the most powerful in the democratic world.

A real parliamentary democracy
The answer to this is simple enough. There's no need to throw the whole constitution out the window. We just need to make every part of it more democratic and re-balance power between people, parliament and government. Here's how.

Can I ask you if you wrote this , or have you copied it from an article?

Because, I'm sorry, but it is a real muddle and displays misunderstandings and misinterpretations of how our constitution works.

I should have given source Republic website about how Britians parliament, government work. If you read it complete from link that DaisyAnne shared it would make sense. Republic have to be careful what they write has to be well researched and truthful.
Do you still think MaizieD that this isn't how our constitution works as you said, or do you not want to consider the points made about how our constitution should work? Just interested.

Blinko Sat 09-Jul-22 20:34:21

Just a thought - BoJo wouldn’t throw his hat in the ring again, would he?

MaizieD Sat 09-Jul-22 20:51:51

Blinko

Just a thought - BoJo wouldn’t throw his hat in the ring again, would he?

If he has resigned as leader he can't stand again.

Legal commentator David Allen Green says that, he has, in effect, resigned, even though he didn't use the word. but...

davidallengreen.com/2022/07/has-johnson-actually-resigned-and-if-so-can-he-renege-on-that-resignation/

MaizieD Sat 09-Jul-22 21:53:54

Do you still think MaizieD that this isn't how our constitution works as you said, or do you not want to consider the points made about how our constitution should work? Just interested.

I think the writer of the piece was muddled about the function of parliament.

This is what I have particular difficulty with.

That's not how a democracy should work. Parliament is there to work for us, not to rule over us. And given the control government has over parliament, the current constitution ends up concentrating huge amounts of power in the hands of the Prime Minister and government ministers.

Go back to the basics of the constitution.

There are three elements: the Legislature, the Executive and the Judiciary.

The Legislature comprises the Commons and the Lords, together they are 'parliament'. It has no regard to party affiliations.

The Executive is the body that represents the Crown in Parliament; it proposes legislation but, legislation can only be enacted if it is the will of parliament. This is why parliament is 'sovereign', its 'will' overrides the 'will' of the Executive (the 'crown in parliament')

Parliamentary sovereignty was established after the 17th C English Civil War, which was fought to challenge the absolute power of the monarch. After the death of Cromwell it was parliament that recalled the monarch, but the balance of power remained with parliament.

The monarch kept the power to appoint a government, but attempts by the monarch to over ride parliament and form a government of its own choosing, with a view to that government carrying out the monarch's wishes, were always stymied by parliament when it refused to accept that government and wouldn't enact the legislation.. In the end, monarchs gave up trying.

So, although the monarchy retained some of the privileges which Republic doesn't like, it was, and is, basically unable to direct government legislation.

The problems of excessive Executive power arise from the party system rather than from the monarchy. Members of parliament were, in theory, independents, though naturally they would tend to ally themselves with other members who shared their beliefs and ideas on how the country should be run (mostly to the advantage of the male, wealthy and propertied classes because they were the only people who could vote and could afford to sit in parliament). But even then, the parties could be quite fluid and people could easily swap between parties or vote against their party if it suited them. And with only two parties voting was simple and results clear cut. Until the inception of a third party, the Labour party in the early 20th C voters chose one party or the other and power, over time, was pretty evenly distributed. It was pretty simple in that the majority of votes gave a party the majority of seats. And the monarch had to ask the party which could command a parliamentary majority to form a government. It had no choice. It still has no choice.

But having three parties means that a party can win a majority of seats without having the majority of the votes cast. So, as far as 'expressing the 'people's will' is concerned the winning party no longer does express it... It is, if you like, no longer a truly democratic system and no longer expresses the wishes of 'the majority'. This is not in any way the fault of the monarchy. It's abolition would make no difference to our current situation.

In theory, parliament is working for the people. The article writer is wrong to say that it isn't. And parliament does 'rule over us' because we ask it to legislate on our behalf. Again in theory, it implements the legislative programme set out in its manifesto the 'the majority' (which, as we've seen, isn't really the majority of voters) voted for.

In our current situation it is clear that MPs in the party of government have little understanding of the significance of parliamentary sovereignty but have given away their powers to scrutinise legislation and hold the Executive to account. Either through ignorance of the significance of their powers or because having their party remain in power is more important to them than observing the principle of the constitution; that parliament is sovereign, not the Executive.

We are, indeed, throwing away the sovereign independence of the Legislature and returning power to the 'crown in parliament'. But this is not because of any actions of the monarch. There may be excellent reasons for wanting a republic, but the key battle is to curb Executive power, not monarchical power. (and, TBH, the only people who seem to be trying to do this are the 'unelected' House of Lords)

I hope this is understandable. It's quite a complex area.

Blinko Sat 09-Jul-22 22:01:56

Thanks for the link, MaisieD. Interesting. Definitely a cynical opportunist.

DaisyAnne Sun 10-Jul-22 00:41:35

Your post was a joy to read Maizie, clear, logical and well written. You should keep a copy though. I expect you will called upon to explain it again before we are done.

By the way, reading it really does make you realise how little Lindsey Hoyle has been able to do to curb executive power and how hard John Bercow tried.

MaizieD Sun 10-Jul-22 06:17:58

Thanks, DaisyAnne

I forgot to add about the independent judiciary as the third element. Which interprets and applies the law as enacted by parliament.. (Which means if a law has been badly drafted the judiciary can't do anything to change it)

And the overarching principle of the Rule of Law.

Ailidh Sun 10-Jul-22 07:00:11

Pammie1

Ailidh

Dickens

Galaxy

Yes lots of deeply unpleasant and dangerous people have charm.

Charm is the great English blight. It does not exist outside these damp islands. It spots and kills anything it touches. It kills love; it kills art; I greatly fear, my dear Charles, it has killed you.”

—Anthony Blanche to Charles Ryder in Evelyn Waugh's "Brideshead Revisited" (1945)

I enjoyed the quote.

Henceforth I shall name Mr. Johnson "The great English blight".

I could think of another word to replace ‘blight’.

Haha, me too!

You'll have seen this meme. Simple pleasures.

Grany Sun 10-Jul-22 08:14:55

Thank you for taking the time to explain your views MaizieD yes it is indeed a complex area smile

Grany Sun 10-Jul-22 08:38:40

Queen as Head of State could have stopped Johnson much earlier on in his premiership but she is only able to do as the PM asks her to do. Monarchy has given all power to the PM and government She does not involve herself in our constitution. She is powerless. What is the point of monarchy?

Dickens Sun 10-Jul-22 21:11:18

DaisyAnne

Your post was a joy to read Maizie, clear, logical and well written. You should keep a copy though. I expect you will called upon to explain it again before we are done.

By the way, reading it really does make you realise how little Lindsey Hoyle has been able to do to curb executive power and how hard John Bercow tried.

... Your post was a joy to read Maizie

I second that!