Gransnet forums

News & politics

Woke up this morning ... morphing to discussion on Heads of State.

(140 Posts)
DaisyAnne Fri 08-Jul-22 07:53:42

It's a bit like that moment when you wake up and realise the dreadful thing you aren't ready for, really did happen yesterday - except in reverse. Bunter didn't leave.

He is still Prime Minister and worse, he has yet again found someone else to blame. He points to "The Herd" - the group of ineffectuals that those being polite still call the Conservative Party. He is having his 'Trump' moment and blaming others for his ejection from power.

No apology, no acceptance he did anything wrong, just hubris.

As it seems the Tories cannot do any more than they have so far managed, to stop this man's destruction of democracy.

We need to have an election.

We need him out, gone and, I would hope, locked up.

DaisyAnne Fri 08-Jul-22 09:29:12

YouGov Poll saying 53% think Johnson should resign as an MP.

RichmondPark Fri 08-Jul-22 09:33:11

Thank you for posting the Rory Stewart link DaisyAnne.

When Johnson resigned as Foreign Secretary he refused to leave the building for three weeks! Turns out he wanted to avoid paying rent on another flat. shock

Blossoming Fri 08-Jul-22 09:37:44

I’m finding a amusing how many former Boris cheerleaders are now ‘Boris bashers’, as some on Gransnet used to refer to anyone who criticised Johnson or his government. Soon you won’t be able to find anyone who will admit to having voted Conservative grin

H1954 Fri 08-Jul-22 09:38:02

DaisyAnne

I think it's the wedding party they feel they didn't have.

How ironic would it be if hardly any guests actually turned up to the wedding party ??‍♀️. Perhaps he would get the message that he's not trusted and certainly not liked but many many people.

Maybe we should all lobby our MP's to discourage them in the event that they have been invited!

Grany Fri 08-Jul-22 09:39:45

These past few days should serve as a lesson as to why we need an effective, elected head of state. In a parliamentary democracy, the prime minister must have the confidence of parliament, yet Boris Johnson illustrated how it is possible to continue without that confidence.

His resignation was forced by political manoeuvres, not by constitutional checks. During this time, there has been uncertainty, speculation and considerable concern about where this was heading and the damage it could do. Yet despite the biggest political crisis for years threatening to blow up into a constitutional crisis, our head of state has remained silent.

It is extraordinary to see some commentators fret that the monarch might be “dragged” into this crisis, or that it might cause her some embarrassment. It is the job of the head of state to get involved in these moments of peril, to steady the ship, offer counsel and, if necessary, take steps to protect and enforce the constitution. That’s not a job that can or will be done by a monarch.

Daisymae Fri 08-Jul-22 09:40:59

Johnson never used the word resign in his speech. Which surely must make people wonder what his real plans are.

JaneJudge Fri 08-Jul-22 09:41:03

I agree with you Grany.

DaisyAnne Fri 08-Jul-22 09:52:46

JaneJudge

Oh I see. They really don't have any shame do they?

None at all Jane. You would think they had never heard the words "Party Gate".

FannyCornforth Fri 08-Jul-22 09:57:59

I’m actually losing the will to think about this anymore.
If it doesn’t stop soon, it’s going to collectively drive us all around the bloody bend.sad

lemsip Fri 08-Jul-22 09:58:18

just heard that party at Chequers is cancelled and a new venue will be arranged!

JaneJudge Fri 08-Jul-22 10:01:16

maybe it will be in that treehouse someone mentioned on another thread

aggie Fri 08-Jul-22 10:01:55

Well I hope the new venue gets a big payment , non refundable, in advance!

Barmeyoldbat Fri 08-Jul-22 10:07:48

It’s seems he is going to have a big party before he leaves, which is was he was good at. Maybe the nation could host street parties and goodbye Boris flag waving parties.

Glorianny Fri 08-Jul-22 10:18:14

I do wonder how Boris is now regarded in the Red Wall . He has actually done what they elected him to do, left the EU. He has, if you look at it that way, been forced to resign as party leader by what they might view as the Westminster elite. He tells lies but so do all politicians. He's their PM. The Daily Mail realises he still has clout. That photo of him holding Wilf is going to be everywhere isn't it?

25Avalon Fri 08-Jul-22 10:29:14

Gloria you I think the red wall will be angry if the tories now try and reverse Brexit and will not vote Tory again. Starmer has said he will not reverse Brexit so will attract his voters back. I think the tories have acted in a disgusting manner. How can you throw in your job one day because you feel your leader lacks integrity and then take it back the next under the same leader? They are all clamouring like pigs with their snouts in the trough to be next PM. About the only Tory who hasn’t turned coat is Jacob Rees Mogg.

DaisyAnne Fri 08-Jul-22 10:31:09

And the USA, with its effective, elected head of state, did so much better, didn't it Grany

What you describe as " political manoeuvres" are acts that are allowed under the constitution - that of resigning to show a lack of confidence. There is no single law against doing such a thing. It is simply rubbish to say it is unconstitutional. It's certainly not great that a government has got itself in this position. That, however, is a fault that should be firmly laid at the feet of the Conservative Party - not the Queen.

This harping on, about giving outright power to an elected head of state is beginning to sound like a search for a Mummy Bear or a Daddy Bear you can cling on to. We are grown-ups; we mess up. Perfection is not one of our attributes. However, the onus is on us to think critically not to rush for the arms of someone bigger who will save us from 'difficult' thinking.

Our problems lie with Parliament and blaming anyone else is a low blow. Parliament still has democratic control and can vote "No Confidence" in the Government if necessary. In that case, the Queen would dissolve it.

So why not tell us what Parliament, where the power lies, can do instead of aiming off the topic yet again.

JaneJudge Fri 08-Jul-22 10:37:20

The Daily Mail is sickening in its portrayal of Boris as an innocent 'world-beating', high-achieving victim brought down by the scheming of others. Photos of Boris by a box of Heroes chocolates, being applauded by teary No.10 staff and greeted by his children with the by-line 'We still love you daddy'

Only the new ones I presume?

Glorianny Fri 08-Jul-22 11:20:33

25Avalon

Gloria you I think the red wall will be angry if the tories now try and reverse Brexit and will not vote Tory again. Starmer has said he will not reverse Brexit so will attract his voters back. I think the tories have acted in a disgusting manner. How can you throw in your job one day because you feel your leader lacks integrity and then take it back the next under the same leader? They are all clamouring like pigs with their snouts in the trough to be next PM. About the only Tory who hasn’t turned coat is Jacob Rees Mogg.

Starmer will always be liked with the Remain campaign no matter how he tries to distance himself and of course he's a lawyer. Plus he doesn't have Boris's charm. So I doubt he will appeal.

Mamie Fri 08-Jul-22 11:28:44

Plus he doesn't have Boris's charm.
I would think most people of probity, morality and common sense would run a mile from "Boris's charm".
Personally I think he has more of the snake than the charmer.

FannyCornforth Fri 08-Jul-22 11:31:34

Mamie There are many members of the snake community who would take great and rightful offence at that remark ?

Zonne Fri 08-Jul-22 11:33:41

I wonder why, as soon as having an elected head of state is mentioned, some people immediately cite the worst examples they can think of?

There are very many good and effective models, and I’ve no idea why some assume we will do such a thing badly, rather than well.

Best headline about the Johnson resignation-that-isn’t-really from the Daily Record (from yesterday, but will apparently do all the way to October): Never-ending Tory

BlueBelle Fri 08-Jul-22 11:34:17

Where’s Guy Fawkes when you need him ?

I cannot believe the people on TV news street interviews and those ringing in to talk programmes still completely love him and think he’s done a wonderful job

Whitewavemark2 Fri 08-Jul-22 11:40:35

BlueBelle

Where’s Guy Fawkes when you need him ?

I cannot believe the people on TV news street interviews and those ringing in to talk programmes still completely love him and think he’s done a wonderful job

It is all in the interest of balance apparently??. Goodness knows how long it must take them to find someone who still supports Johnson.

Grantanow Fri 08-Jul-22 11:56:50

Disgraceful! He must go now.

Grany Fri 08-Jul-22 12:07:32

DaisyAnne

And the USA, with its effective, elected head of state, did so much better, didn't it Grany

What you describe as " political manoeuvres" are acts that are allowed under the constitution - that of resigning to show a lack of confidence. There is no single law against doing such a thing. It is simply rubbish to say it is unconstitutional. It's certainly not great that a government has got itself in this position. That, however, is a fault that should be firmly laid at the feet of the Conservative Party - not the Queen.

This harping on, about giving outright power to an elected head of state is beginning to sound like a search for a Mummy Bear or a Daddy Bear you can cling on to. We are grown-ups; we mess up. Perfection is not one of our attributes. However, the onus is on us to think critically not to rush for the arms of someone bigger who will save us from 'difficult' thinking.

Our problems lie with Parliament and blaming anyone else is a low blow. Parliament still has democratic control and can vote "No Confidence" in the Government if necessary. In that case, the Queen would dissolve it.

So why not tell us what Parliament, where the power lies, can do instead of aiming off the topic yet again.

A parliamentary system should put parliament at the centre, accountable only to the voters. In the UK parliament is weak in the face of government power, and that's largely because of the Crown and the monarchy.

The Crown gives the government huge powers to take decisions without parliament or to control parliamentary business, whether that's deciding when parliament will be running or having the power to ensure proposed laws they disagree with have little chance of getting passed.

Parliament is weak in the face of government, largely there to do what it's told. But in terms of the power of make laws, change our constitution and determine our rights, parliament is all powerful.

In the UK parliament is sovereign, which means it's the highest power in the land. No court can overturn a decision made by parliament, no treaty can override laws passed by parliament. A court could rule that a law conflicts with a treaty, or with another law, but a judge can't override or scrap that law.

That's not how a democracy should work. Parliament is there to work for us, not to rule over us. And given the control government has over parliament, the current constitution ends up concentrating huge amounts of power in the hands of the Prime Minister and government ministers.

In terms of domestic law the British government is one of the most powerful in the democratic world.

A real parliamentary democracy
The answer to this is simple enough. There's no need to throw the whole constitution out the window. We just need to make every part of it more democratic and re-balance power between people, parliament and government. Here's how.