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Woke up this morning ... morphing to discussion on Heads of State.

(140 Posts)
DaisyAnne Fri 08-Jul-22 07:53:42

It's a bit like that moment when you wake up and realise the dreadful thing you aren't ready for, really did happen yesterday - except in reverse. Bunter didn't leave.

He is still Prime Minister and worse, he has yet again found someone else to blame. He points to "The Herd" - the group of ineffectuals that those being polite still call the Conservative Party. He is having his 'Trump' moment and blaming others for his ejection from power.

No apology, no acceptance he did anything wrong, just hubris.

As it seems the Tories cannot do any more than they have so far managed, to stop this man's destruction of democracy.

We need to have an election.

We need him out, gone and, I would hope, locked up.

DaisyAnne Mon 11-Jul-22 17:54:01

Grany, you are quoting from elsewhere again and neither putting it in "quotes" or italics. You should also flag up the source as in [source: DaisyAnne] or put a link to the document or find some way of your own to let us know.

So unlike Prince Charles, who ignores the unwritten rule that he shouldn't become political, in a republic the head of state could be challenged if they did step out of line.

Prince Charles is not the Head of State so not bound by the rules applicable to that role. The person who wrote that piece seems to have little knowledge and a great deal of bias.

Where, and in which country, does the Head of State act as referee in the political process, ...? In our country, the constitution does that and Maizie has explained how each part of the mechanism of state plays its part. After Johnson's attack on the Constitution, we could well decide to make changes, as we always have done with this oldest of political systems. The Monarch is an easy target but in this instance, she is the wrong one.

DaisyAnne Mon 11-Jul-22 17:06:12

Grany

Well the chaos that is johnsons government the law breaking the lies a Head of State could not stop this? Well presidents in other countries do. An effective Head of State could have stepped in and told Johnson he should resign. But our queen cannot do this she can only do as the PM asks remember the proroging of parliment she yes to the PM.

We have a pointless and powerless Head of State

You should be asking yourselves what does monarchy actually do?

Which Presidents and what countries, Grany? A couple of examples would let us know where you are going with this.

Grany Mon 11-Jul-22 17:00:40

Yes a president a parliamentary republic

we can’t hold the Queen and her family to account at the ballot box, there’s nothing to stop them abusing their privilege, misusing their influence or simply wasting our money.

A non-partisan head of state who is not involved in making political decisions or running the government. So not like the system that they have in France or the United States.

A head of state who is able to do the job that the Queen cannot do. It is a serious job of representing the nation, acting as referee in the political process, championing the interests of the people and defending our democratic traditions.

The great thing about an elected head of state is that their actions, behaviour and public spending are all open to proper scrutiny, and if they do something wrong they can be sacked. So unlike Prince Charles, who ignores the unwritten rule that he shouldn't become political, in a republic the head of state could be challenged if they did step out of line.

MaizieD Mon 11-Jul-22 15:07:50

Well this system of government is wrong then as Monarchy has transferred all powers means she has no role as a Head of State to step in to defend our constitution as other presidents do when PM are breaking the constitutional laws.

So, basically, Grany, you are looking for a Presidential system of government? Monarchical power transferred t a president?

After all, you're clearly not very happy about the monarch's 'power' being transferred to 'the people' via Parliament..

Grany Mon 11-Jul-22 11:16:31

25Avalon

Grany not a lot. Just thinking what does a Queen bee actually do? Keeps the worker bees busy and lays lots of eggs, but at the same time is controlled by the worker bees.

I can’t see Johnson being any danger except maybe to Rishi Sunak? Don’t forget Parliament is in recess throughout August and a new leader should be elected or about to be when it returns. That’s if the contenders haven’t destroyed each other by then! The gloves are off and the media are revelling in the murk.

Well the queen bee hasn't laid many eggs except four but one or more of them are rotten so not very industrious ?

NotSpaghetti Mon 11-Jul-22 11:06:36

DaisyAnne

Sorry NotSpaghetti. I didn't see your post before I finally pressed send.

No need to apologise - having just seen people commenting on the difference between “facts” and “views” I expect we both did massive eye-rolls!

It will go on being irritating I feel.
And the phrase “alternative facts” drives me bonkers!
????.

25Avalon Mon 11-Jul-22 09:53:02

Grany not a lot. Just thinking what does a Queen bee actually do? Keeps the worker bees busy and lays lots of eggs, but at the same time is controlled by the worker bees.

I can’t see Johnson being any danger except maybe to Rishi Sunak? Don’t forget Parliament is in recess throughout August and a new leader should be elected or about to be when it returns. That’s if the contenders haven’t destroyed each other by then! The gloves are off and the media are revelling in the murk.

Grany Mon 11-Jul-22 09:45:36

MaizieD

^ Monarchy has given all power to the PM and government^

That was exactly my point, Grany. The political history of the past almost 400 years has been about the transfer of power from the Crown to Parliament. The party which forms a government has been elected by citizens of this country. So your article writer is incorrect when they say that parliament is 'ruling over us' and that it is not 'working for the people'. Because MPs are elected 'by the people' to represent them in parliament. They are chosen (in theory) on the policies laid out in their manifesto, their election implies that those policies are what 'the people' want them to do. How is that 'not working for the people'?

There are enormous holes in the parliamentary system, but the monarch, which has transferred power to Parliament and so to the elected Executive, cannot be blamed for shortcomings of the Executive.

Yes understand what you are saying MaizieD

Well this system of government is wrong then as Monarchy has transferred all powers means she has no role as a Head of State to step in to defend our constitution as other presidents do when PM are breaking the constitutional laws.

Grany Mon 11-Jul-22 09:32:41

Well the chaos that is johnsons government the law breaking the lies a Head of State could not stop this? Well presidents in other countries do. An effective Head of State could have stepped in and told Johnson he should resign. But our queen cannot do this she can only do as the PM asks remember the proroging of parliment she yes to the PM.

We have a pointless and powerless Head of State

You should be asking yourselves what does monarchy actually do?

DaisyAnne Sun 10-Jul-22 23:13:17

Grany

Queen as Head of State could have stopped Johnson much earlier on in his premiership but she is only able to do as the PM asks her to do. Monarchy has given all power to the PM and government She does not involve herself in our constitution. She is powerless. What is the point of monarchy?

I do despair sometimes.

DaisyAnne Sun 10-Jul-22 23:07:06

Sorry NotSpaghetti. I didn't see your post before I finally pressed send.

DaisyAnne Sun 10-Jul-22 23:05:55

Grany

Thank you for taking the time to explain your views MaizieD yes it is indeed a complex area smile

My view is that they were mainly facts not "views", Grany.

NotSpaghetti Sun 10-Jul-22 22:43:28

Grany

Thank you for taking the time to explain your views MaizieD yes it is indeed a complex area smile

Grany, I actually think that Maizie was explaining the facts rather than offering her views.

MaizieD Sun 10-Jul-22 22:10:23

^ Monarchy has given all power to the PM and government^

That was exactly my point, Grany. The political history of the past almost 400 years has been about the transfer of power from the Crown to Parliament. The party which forms a government has been elected by citizens of this country. So your article writer is incorrect when they say that parliament is 'ruling over us' and that it is not 'working for the people'. Because MPs are elected 'by the people' to represent them in parliament. They are chosen (in theory) on the policies laid out in their manifesto, their election implies that those policies are what 'the people' want them to do. How is that 'not working for the people'?

There are enormous holes in the parliamentary system, but the monarch, which has transferred power to Parliament and so to the elected Executive, cannot be blamed for shortcomings of the Executive.

Dickens Sun 10-Jul-22 21:11:18

DaisyAnne

Your post was a joy to read Maizie, clear, logical and well written. You should keep a copy though. I expect you will called upon to explain it again before we are done.

By the way, reading it really does make you realise how little Lindsey Hoyle has been able to do to curb executive power and how hard John Bercow tried.

... Your post was a joy to read Maizie

I second that!

Grany Sun 10-Jul-22 08:38:40

Queen as Head of State could have stopped Johnson much earlier on in his premiership but she is only able to do as the PM asks her to do. Monarchy has given all power to the PM and government She does not involve herself in our constitution. She is powerless. What is the point of monarchy?

Grany Sun 10-Jul-22 08:14:55

Thank you for taking the time to explain your views MaizieD yes it is indeed a complex area smile

Ailidh Sun 10-Jul-22 07:00:11

Pammie1

Ailidh

Dickens

Galaxy

Yes lots of deeply unpleasant and dangerous people have charm.

Charm is the great English blight. It does not exist outside these damp islands. It spots and kills anything it touches. It kills love; it kills art; I greatly fear, my dear Charles, it has killed you.”

—Anthony Blanche to Charles Ryder in Evelyn Waugh's "Brideshead Revisited" (1945)

I enjoyed the quote.

Henceforth I shall name Mr. Johnson "The great English blight".

I could think of another word to replace ‘blight’.

Haha, me too!

You'll have seen this meme. Simple pleasures.

MaizieD Sun 10-Jul-22 06:17:58

Thanks, DaisyAnne

I forgot to add about the independent judiciary as the third element. Which interprets and applies the law as enacted by parliament.. (Which means if a law has been badly drafted the judiciary can't do anything to change it)

And the overarching principle of the Rule of Law.

DaisyAnne Sun 10-Jul-22 00:41:35

Your post was a joy to read Maizie, clear, logical and well written. You should keep a copy though. I expect you will called upon to explain it again before we are done.

By the way, reading it really does make you realise how little Lindsey Hoyle has been able to do to curb executive power and how hard John Bercow tried.

Blinko Sat 09-Jul-22 22:01:56

Thanks for the link, MaisieD. Interesting. Definitely a cynical opportunist.

MaizieD Sat 09-Jul-22 21:53:54

Do you still think MaizieD that this isn't how our constitution works as you said, or do you not want to consider the points made about how our constitution should work? Just interested.

I think the writer of the piece was muddled about the function of parliament.

This is what I have particular difficulty with.

That's not how a democracy should work. Parliament is there to work for us, not to rule over us. And given the control government has over parliament, the current constitution ends up concentrating huge amounts of power in the hands of the Prime Minister and government ministers.

Go back to the basics of the constitution.

There are three elements: the Legislature, the Executive and the Judiciary.

The Legislature comprises the Commons and the Lords, together they are 'parliament'. It has no regard to party affiliations.

The Executive is the body that represents the Crown in Parliament; it proposes legislation but, legislation can only be enacted if it is the will of parliament. This is why parliament is 'sovereign', its 'will' overrides the 'will' of the Executive (the 'crown in parliament')

Parliamentary sovereignty was established after the 17th C English Civil War, which was fought to challenge the absolute power of the monarch. After the death of Cromwell it was parliament that recalled the monarch, but the balance of power remained with parliament.

The monarch kept the power to appoint a government, but attempts by the monarch to over ride parliament and form a government of its own choosing, with a view to that government carrying out the monarch's wishes, were always stymied by parliament when it refused to accept that government and wouldn't enact the legislation.. In the end, monarchs gave up trying.

So, although the monarchy retained some of the privileges which Republic doesn't like, it was, and is, basically unable to direct government legislation.

The problems of excessive Executive power arise from the party system rather than from the monarchy. Members of parliament were, in theory, independents, though naturally they would tend to ally themselves with other members who shared their beliefs and ideas on how the country should be run (mostly to the advantage of the male, wealthy and propertied classes because they were the only people who could vote and could afford to sit in parliament). But even then, the parties could be quite fluid and people could easily swap between parties or vote against their party if it suited them. And with only two parties voting was simple and results clear cut. Until the inception of a third party, the Labour party in the early 20th C voters chose one party or the other and power, over time, was pretty evenly distributed. It was pretty simple in that the majority of votes gave a party the majority of seats. And the monarch had to ask the party which could command a parliamentary majority to form a government. It had no choice. It still has no choice.

But having three parties means that a party can win a majority of seats without having the majority of the votes cast. So, as far as 'expressing the 'people's will' is concerned the winning party no longer does express it... It is, if you like, no longer a truly democratic system and no longer expresses the wishes of 'the majority'. This is not in any way the fault of the monarchy. It's abolition would make no difference to our current situation.

In theory, parliament is working for the people. The article writer is wrong to say that it isn't. And parliament does 'rule over us' because we ask it to legislate on our behalf. Again in theory, it implements the legislative programme set out in its manifesto the 'the majority' (which, as we've seen, isn't really the majority of voters) voted for.

In our current situation it is clear that MPs in the party of government have little understanding of the significance of parliamentary sovereignty but have given away their powers to scrutinise legislation and hold the Executive to account. Either through ignorance of the significance of their powers or because having their party remain in power is more important to them than observing the principle of the constitution; that parliament is sovereign, not the Executive.

We are, indeed, throwing away the sovereign independence of the Legislature and returning power to the 'crown in parliament'. But this is not because of any actions of the monarch. There may be excellent reasons for wanting a republic, but the key battle is to curb Executive power, not monarchical power. (and, TBH, the only people who seem to be trying to do this are the 'unelected' House of Lords)

I hope this is understandable. It's quite a complex area.

MaizieD Sat 09-Jul-22 20:51:51

Blinko

Just a thought - BoJo wouldn’t throw his hat in the ring again, would he?

If he has resigned as leader he can't stand again.

Legal commentator David Allen Green says that, he has, in effect, resigned, even though he didn't use the word. but...

davidallengreen.com/2022/07/has-johnson-actually-resigned-and-if-so-can-he-renege-on-that-resignation/

Blinko Sat 09-Jul-22 20:34:21

Just a thought - BoJo wouldn’t throw his hat in the ring again, would he?

Grany Sat 09-Jul-22 18:32:33

MaizieD

From Grany's post at 12.07

A parliamentary system should put parliament at the centre, accountable only to the voters. In the UK parliament is weak in the face of government power, and that's largely because of the Crown and the monarchy.

The Crown gives the government huge powers to take decisions without parliament or to control parliamentary business, whether that's deciding when parliament will be running or having the power to ensure proposed laws they disagree with have little chance of getting passed.

Parliament is weak in the face of government, largely there to do what it's told. But in terms of the power of make laws, change our constitution and determine our rights, parliament is all powerful.

In the UK parliament is sovereign, which means it's the highest power in the land. No court can overturn a decision made by parliament, no treaty can override laws passed by parliament. A court could rule that a law conflicts with a treaty, or with another law, but a judge can't override or scrap that law.

That's not how a democracy should work. Parliament is there to work for us, not to rule over us. And given the control government has over parliament, the current constitution ends up concentrating huge amounts of power in the hands of the Prime Minister and government ministers.

In terms of domestic law the British government is one of the most powerful in the democratic world.

A real parliamentary democracy
The answer to this is simple enough. There's no need to throw the whole constitution out the window. We just need to make every part of it more democratic and re-balance power between people, parliament and government. Here's how.

Can I ask you if you wrote this , or have you copied it from an article?

Because, I'm sorry, but it is a real muddle and displays misunderstandings and misinterpretations of how our constitution works.

I should have given source Republic website about how Britians parliament, government work. If you read it complete from link that DaisyAnne shared it would make sense. Republic have to be careful what they write has to be well researched and truthful.
Do you still think MaizieD that this isn't how our constitution works as you said, or do you not want to consider the points made about how our constitution should work? Just interested.