What, if anything, do Conservatives now believe in?

Same as always: 'me first' and keep the paupers down

Of course it could be that people actually think that a small state, where things like health services, care services, etc should be paid for by each individual, is desirable.

Presumably they also think that minimum tax will benefit them.

That are the two pillars the candidates are pushing.

Wheniwasyourage

Good post, Luckygirl3

Agreed. A kindred spirit

It all leaves me utterly bewildered that people don’t seem to get it.

I think they don't 'get it' because they don't want to get it.

It doesn't matter how many times one explains how state spending benefits the economy; how many times you show that taxation doesn't fund spending; how many times you link to internet searches where economist after economist after economists says that national economies are nothing like household economies, they all cling to what Luckygirl3 so elegantly terms 'the Thatcherite bollocks' ; cling tighter and tighter in the face of evidence to the contrary.

I don't know what on earth will get them to change their minds...

Good post, Luckygirl3

Luckygirl3

*"And, for the record, Tory reforms are also increasing prices right here in the UK. A single NHS would be much cheaper to run than the fractured service we have, supplied through hundreds of trusts.

That’s the same in education too, where academy trusts duplicate costs, enormously, absorbing into admin expenses the money that should be going to frontline teaching. The care system is much the same.

So what the Tories want to do us cut government spending more and make us either accept worse services or pay more for the service we used to have because the private sector now needs to take a big cut out of them."*

I've pulled this quote out from the link. This is basically what I was trying to say upthread.

The Tories approach is all based on the Thatcherite bollocks that national budgets are the same as household budgets and we should spend as little as possible to "balance the books."

But the more we spend on proper public services, the happier everyone is, the more people are in work, the better services we get, the more money is pumped into the economy in the form of taxes and spending.

It beggars belief that the Tories do not get this, because they are blinded by their privatisation and profit agenda. This is based originally on their fear of a communist style state - but a nation with excellent state-funded services is not red state. As long as the Tories are in power we will continue this slide into poverty, miserable services and societal divisions.

You would think they would be covered in shame by the presence of food banks - on the contrary, one Tory cut the ribbon at the opening of a new one in his constituency - heaven help us all.

Good post.

It all leaves me utterly bewildered that people don’t seem to get it.

*"And, for the record, Tory reforms are also increasing prices right here in the UK. A single NHS would be much cheaper to run than the fractured service we have, supplied through hundreds of trusts.

That’s the same in education too, where academy trusts duplicate costs, enormously, absorbing into admin expenses the money that should be going to frontline teaching. The care system is much the same.

So what the Tories want to do us cut government spending more and make us either accept worse services or pay more for the service we used to have because the private sector now needs to take a big cut out of them."*

I've pulled this quote out from the link. This is basically what I was trying to say upthread.

The Tories approach is all based on the Thatcherite bollocks that national budgets are the same as household budgets and we should spend as little as possible to "balance the books."

But the more we spend on proper public services, the happier everyone is, the more people are in work, the better services we get, the more money is pumped into the economy in the form of taxes and spending.

It beggars belief that the Tories do not get this, because they are blinded by their privatisation and profit agenda. This is based originally on their fear of a communist style state - but a nation with excellent state-funded services is not red state. As long as the Tories are in power we will continue this slide into poverty, miserable services and societal divisions.

You would think they would be covered in shame by the presence of food banks - on the contrary, one Tory cut the ribbon at the opening of a new one in his constituency - heaven help us all.

Whitewave to my mind a very true statement. we really need a GE and make clean sweep

I have been watching and listening to the candidates, and feeling very puzzled as to why they are not addressing the issues that are a priority in peoples minds. Like the cost of living, NHS, social care etc. Tax comes way down the list.

Then the penny dropped.

They aren’t addressing the voter, they are talking to a miniscule group of white, wealthy southern men who will have the vote on our next prime minister.

Our democracy is truly f….d

I think you are right Boz. I also think some poll that they have done highlighted "tax-cuts". However, I think they may be behind the times with the traditional Tory member. I assume they are out now, in very hot rooms with groups of members, trying to find out what they are saying.

It will be interesting to hear.

Whitewavemark2

I have been reading the promises being put out by the hopeful candidates.

They don’t seem to be saying anything about the crises in the cost of living or the NHS.

All they are talking about is cutting tax. The trouble with cutting tax is that it is inflationary, and with the current rate at 10% this doesn’t seem terribly sensible.

I also can’t see how it would help resolve the growing inequality gap.

The only tax cutting promises I've seen have been cutting business taxes.

A fat lot of good that's going to do when people don't have the money to spend in those businesses.

At the moment, The Candidates are not talking to us but to the members of the Tory party who are always concerned about taxation and what they perceive is a move to the left. They are trying to become leader of a party with very traditioal beliefs of the small state. The public have no say atm; wait for a GE where I suspect they will lose out to the Liberal Party. The LDs should beef up their act in readiness.

I think we need a separate thread for this, HousePlantQueen , to explicitly ask tory voters what they believe in that leads them to vote tory.

Just started, good idea.

This aside, and apart from Kadinsky trying to direct us to Macron (why?), would any of you like to tell us what will make you choose/not choose one of them? I am sincerely interested.

I think we need a separate thread for this, HousePlantQueen , to explicitly ask tory voters what they believe in that leads them to vote tory.

Here's your link, Wwmk2

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2022/07/11/government-is-not-an-economic-black-hole-as-tories-seem-to-think-its-essential-to-our-national-well-being/

Franbern says:

Of course a low tax economy ALSO means low social services = even less money for NHS, Education, Police, etc etc.

That is just not true, because taxation doesn't fund spending. I keep on banging this drum because if people were to actually take this on board it would give them a completely different perspective on how a national economy works and a better way to judge party's economic policies and spending plans.

This is not a conclusion reached by nutters. It is a conclusion reached by economists who have studied the flows of money in a national economy and taken them to their logical conclusion.

This video is US centred, but the process it describes applies to any country which uses its own 'sovereign' currency.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHQCjFebIf8

I had missed that this morning Whitewave so very many thanks. This is such an interesting point.

In that case let’s be clear, what the government does in supplying us with the services we all need adds to our income. Whether it is education, health, social care, criminal justice, and so much else, including defence, government is not a black hole into which we pour money.

I think this is it WWM

Government is not an economic black hole as Tories seem to think: it’s essential to our national well-being

Ok, so would any of the once vociferous Johnson supporters like to tell us what they would like to see in the next candidate for PM? What will make them vote for that candidate over the others? Do we have any Tory party members on here who will be voting on this crucial decision which will affect all of us?

Like most of the posters so far, I am concerned that all of them are pushing tax cuts, with no mention of help for the NHS, Cost of Living Crisis, forthcoming fuel problems, etc. To be honest, anyone who thinks they are the perfect candidate, by definition isn't.

This aside, and apart from Kadinsky trying to direct us to Macron (why?), would any of you like to tell us what will make you choose/not choose one of them? I am sincerely interested.

No mention of levelling up or any other undeliverable slogans invented by Johnson’s advisers.

I think many conservative voters still believe in a small state/low tax government. I believe conservative MPs are now desperately trying to focus on the next election and the policies that will secure a win. I also find it unbelievable that nobody seems to think NHS, child poverty, social services etc deserve a mentioning. We've heard the mantra ”delivering on the people's priorities” for a long time now. I spent 55 minutes (!) on the phone the other day just trying to get through to my local GP surgery. This seems to be quite normal these days. So obviously not a priority.

Kandinsky: ^"I’m glad Macron & other EU leaders have been exposed as greedy shysters.
I wonder what other dodgy dealings they’re involved in?"^

What a relief to know that our own government will never be exposed as greedy shysters and have never been involved in dodgy dealings.
I think you rather Uberdid it with your Macron/Uber comment.

It’s title is “government is not the black hole Tories seem to think”

Dinahmo

Here's a link to his entry in Tax Research UK

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/richard-murphy/

It gives an idea into his way of thinking

Thank you for that.

If you are whizzy at links can you do the one my post relates to please?

It was posted on 11/07/22 and can be found on twitter and probably elsewhere.

Thank you in advance.

Keeping their soft jobs. Just like Johnson is hanging on.

Here's a link to his entry in Tax Research UK

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/richard-murphy/

It gives an idea into his way of thinking

Whitewavemark2

Anyone seen Professor Richard Murphy’s explanation as to how the economy operates?

He uses a simple formula-

GDP (a country’s income) = consumption (what we spend as private individuals) + government consumption ( what the government spends on public services etc + investment into the economy ( capital input leads to economic growth and higher employment) + or - net exports ( export-import).

So what Murphy is arguing is that it is making no sense if we want to grow our economy to reduce government spending (consumption).

Government spending supplies us with all the services we need like health, education, defence, etc. The money does not disappear down a black hole as the Tories like to suggest, but these services add to our income.

So the Tory candidates who are arguing for less government spending seem muddled. If they do so, the first thing that they will do is to reduce our GDP.

What does a 20% cut in public services mean? Well, first it will mean, fewer, police, fewer teachers, nurses, doctors and a smaller NHS.

So not only will we lose what these people add to the economy, we will lose what they spend as well. Even if they find another job, it tends to be less well paid because they are trained to do the job they are doing and not others, so they will consume less.

That is a bit from his article. If anyone can do a link I’d be grateful

I'd be grateful too. I'm trying (failing) to properly understand macro economics. Every little helps...