Reducing the rights to appropriate schooling for children with disabilities

It's always a bit rash to ask that question on the internet I think.

Local Authorities have limited funds and no longer have any responsibility for teacher training. Academisation has meant that schools are directly responsible for their own budgets, including training, with central government control stronger than ever. School funding has been cut over the last 12 years. Changes to the formula for funding have hit schools with a high number of special needs pupils and/or in deprived areas hardest.

Inclusion is not the answer for all pupils. Any parent of a special needs child and teachers know that.

It was actually the 1978 Warnock Report which was responsible for the current system. Baroness Warnock herself later said the system that she helped to create was "appalling" because of the expense of its administration and its tendency to deny support to mildly disadvantaged children.

Galaxy

It's always a bit rash to ask that question on the internet I think.

are you talking to me? I think the heat and the menopause has got to me.

You are right growstuff, Baroness Warnock said that 'inclusion' had been taken too literally (the irony)

I've been extremely lucky with as a young (and working class) Mum to have got such a good education for my (now adult) disabled child and I'm in the very rare position that in their mid 20s they are still in education funded by the LA - not even on an academic course! I know that isn't something that people and families can fight for, for all sorts of reasons - some of which is explained on the website I linked to. The comments regarding private special school education. I know of TWO families (out of hundreds that I know or have worked with) who managed to get private special schooling for their children with disability. Both had access to huge financial funds to pay for very good legal representation. I don't know of anyone poor/working class or even middle class managing it. It is an absolute minefield.

I want to add we have been really please with the LA special schools too but I don't think it's something to take for granted and cuts to schooling and services for children (and adults) with disabilities started in 2010 (at least) so I make no apology for thinking these changes are to save money. Indeed some of the posts on here have mentioned funding and how much it will cost. It saves the government millions to allow children with high needs to live at home with their families and live 'normal' lives. But it isn't about cost, its about the value in people and in society - otherwise you have lost already

No sorry Jane not you! The sentence what do you know about education, or physics, or gardening never usually ends well on the internet.

disgusting, the way this govt treats people in need is disgraceful, the sooner we get them out the better

growstuff

Glorianny What experience do you have of British schools or the education system? Your comments are naive in the extreme.

Mmm, Let me think! Oh just 30+ years working in primary and middle schools, in some of the most deprived inner city areas in the country. Ooh plus a few short term placements in behavioural units attached to those schools. Not to mention, from the other side, supporting a gifted but severely dyslexic son whom the system failed miserably
Does that qualify me to comment?
I can't see what is "naive" about believing inclusion can happen and is good for all children but it needs a massive amount of funding and a change of ethos in both schools and staff. It is as I said the norm in some US schools. My great niece in spite of her cerebral palsy which affects her mobility and her speech was in mainstream education all the time. She even took part in school productions where the other children sometimes carried her, when the chorus needed to move. It was good for all of them.
Of course some would rather such children were put in special schools,, what happens when they become adults is rather ignored.

I really despise comments like put in special schools. Special schools exist for children who find mainstream too challenging. They are segregated or locked away. They go to a school which meets their needs.

They are not segregated or locked away I did warn you all the heat is getting to me

But why JaneJudge could not a mainstream school meet those needs given the proper funding and a change of ethos?
They are segregated and quite often discriminated against when they leave school because the school they put on any CV is regarded in the wider world as somewhere for people who can't cope with the real world (and who are quite often called very insulting names)

The Victorians locked away adults they considered incapable of living independent lives, no one would think of that now. People with disabilities are part of society so are children with special needs. If the education system still fails to meet those needs in mainstream education it is a fault in the system and it needs sorting. (I don't expect it to be by the way)

Glorianny

growstuff

Glorianny What experience do you have of British schools or the education system? Your comments are naive in the extreme.

Mmm, Let me think! Oh just 30+ years working in primary and middle schools, in some of the most deprived inner city areas in the country. Ooh plus a few short term placements in behavioural units attached to those schools. Not to mention, from the other side, supporting a gifted but severely dyslexic son whom the system failed miserably
Does that qualify me to comment?
I can't see what is "naive" about believing inclusion can happen and is good for all children but it needs a massive amount of funding and a change of ethos in both schools and staff. It is as I said the norm in some US schools. My great niece in spite of her cerebral palsy which affects her mobility and her speech was in mainstream education all the time. She even took part in school productions where the other children sometimes carried her, when the chorus needed to move. It was good for all of them.
Of course some would rather such children were put in special schools,, what happens when they become adults is rather ignored.

So you should know very well that some children just cannot access mainstream schools.

As you're such an expert, you know that cerebral palsy affects people in many different ways. I've taught children with cerebral pals in mainstream schools. It's not a problem, provided they have mobility aids and somebody to help them with a few tasks. However, there are hundreds of other disabilities which mean that some children do need specialist facilities. No adjustments would enable them to flourish in mainstream schools.

I'm not arguing that children who can access mainstream school shouldn't be supported to do so. All the children I have ever known in special schools have been there because mainstream school would not have met their needs and they would have found it too challenging, my own child included. I felt the special schools were more inclusive than mainstream.

For the record I know lots of children (now adults) with significant learning disabilities that went to mainstream school every day to do junk modelling in the corridor outside their classroom. I preferred my own child to attend a special school ^with peers^where they had a curriculum and living skills program (including physio and salt) suited to their needs. As I've seen the system deteriorate over the last 10 years, I'm not as hopeful as you are at what this is SEND review is suggesting or proposing and neither is mencap.

I'm really pleased your niece thrived in mainstream by the way

growstuff

Glorianny

growstuff

Glorianny What experience do you have of British schools or the education system? Your comments are naive in the extreme.

Mmm, Let me think! Oh just 30+ years working in primary and middle schools, in some of the most deprived inner city areas in the country. Ooh plus a few short term placements in behavioural units attached to those schools. Not to mention, from the other side, supporting a gifted but severely dyslexic son whom the system failed miserably
Does that qualify me to comment?
I can't see what is "naive" about believing inclusion can happen and is good for all children but it needs a massive amount of funding and a change of ethos in both schools and staff. It is as I said the norm in some US schools. My great niece in spite of her cerebral palsy which affects her mobility and her speech was in mainstream education all the time. She even took part in school productions where the other children sometimes carried her, when the chorus needed to move. It was good for all of them.
Of course some would rather such children were put in special schools,, what happens when they become adults is rather ignored.

So you should know very well that some children just cannot access mainstream schools.

As you're such an expert, you know that cerebral palsy affects people in many different ways. I've taught children with cerebral pals in mainstream schools. It's not a problem, provided they have mobility aids and somebody to help them with a few tasks. However, there are hundreds of other disabilities which mean that some children do need specialist facilities. No adjustments would enable them to flourish in mainstream schools.

The level of support my GN received in her school just isn't available here growstuff and I have no doubt she would have finished up in a special school in this country. She had regular speech therapy sessions in school from starting, regular physio sessions in school, because CP children need it, and counselling in her secondary (high) school. Even in a special school here I doubt she would have had as much support. I realise this isn't the norm in all US schools and very much to do with the affluent state they live in. But it opened my eyes as to what can be provided and what is lacking in our system where education is separate from anything else although it is obvious that health and education should be linked for children and especially for children with special needs.

I hesitate to jump in here, but, as I recall, the pressure for inclusion years ago came from parents whose children were intellectually capable of coping with a mainstream school curriculum but who were placed in special schools because of physical difficulties.

Which is fine, though, as Glorianny points out, this 'could' involve massive amounts of funding, which schools just don't have.

But when it comes to children who have minimal intellectual ability it seems unkind to place them where neither they, or the staff can cope with their needs. We had a 'special school' for such children in the grounds of the school where I worked and it had all sorts of facilities and equipment, plus a practically 1:1 staff student ratio which no mainstream school could ever provide for even one such student.

Or, there are children who are on the autistic spectrum who are unable to cope with the noise, constant movement and sheer numbers of their peers, who do very well in a small, calm unit where their needs are catered for. And that, of course, includes their educational needs.

It can't be one or the other, surely? These children are so diverse. Some thrive in mainstream, some don't.

But my experience is limited, so I can't debate it...

No one suggested it should be one or the other? the problem is that some children who need to be placed in a special school have problems doing so and some who need mainstream struggle to get the right support. Neither is right. Every child with a disability should be treated as an individual and their needs catered to. We should al be invested in that, a fairer society for all. I thought that is what David Cameron promised

I agree with you Maizie. Mainstream schools can usually provide for children with physical disabilities, provided there are lifts and enough TAs to push wheelchairs around and help with packing/unpacking bags etc.

I've worked in a school which had a special unit on site too and it did a fantastic job, but it was extremely well-funded with specialist staff and equipment. Pupils sometimes joined others for some lessons and assemblies, but most of the lessons were in small groups or 1:1. However, not every school has those facilities nor the space to build a new unit. I left the school some years ago and funding was already under threat.

In what capacity did you work in Primary and Middle schools, Gloriananny?

JaneJudge

No one suggested it should be one or the other? the problem is that some children who need to be placed in a special school have problems doing so and some who need mainstream struggle to get the right support. Neither is right. Every child with a disability should be treated as an individual and their needs catered to. We should al be invested in that, a fairer society for all. I thought that is what David Cameron promised

I agree with you, JJ. Special needs is a lottery.

I thought that is what David Cameron promised

Lesson learned then? Never trust a tory

I haven't questioned anyone's abilities or experiences on this thread but it seems all and sundry think they can question mine.
As far as special units go in mainstream schools. Yes they are great and I experienced an excellent one in a school which dealt with children with limited or no sight. They spent time in the unit but went into mainstream with support for lessons they could manage. I see no reason why such support shouldn't be provided for all children with special needs. But I don't expect it to happen. It would require a great deal of money, some changes in the curriculum and a lot of change amongst teaching staff some of whom can't manage to deal with any child who is slightly different.

People are questioning the statements you are making, because we know that inclusion is not for all. The staff/pupil ratio could never be high enough to support the almost individual support that some children need or the very special and expensive facilities facilities available to match those of the remaining special schools, plus the fact that some children with very demanding special needs can impact badly on the needs of mainstream pupils, to which the class teacher has to give equal consideration.
In what capacity did you work in Primary and Middle schools?

Glorianny

I haven't questioned anyone's abilities or experiences on this thread but it seems all and sundry think they can question mine.
As far as special units go in mainstream schools. Yes they are great and I experienced an excellent one in a school which dealt with children with limited or no sight. They spent time in the unit but went into mainstream with support for lessons they could manage. I see no reason why such support shouldn't be provided for all children with special needs. But I don't expect it to happen. It would require a great deal of money, some changes in the curriculum and a lot of change amongst teaching staff some of whom can't manage to deal with any child who is slightly different.

Most teachers in mainstream schools certainly can deal with any child who is slightly different, but you're undestimating the specialist imput some pupils with complex needs require.

The reason specialist units aren't built attached to mainstream schools is that money (and, very often, land) isn't available. They're only really feasible at secondary level.

I work into a number of specialist units attached to primary schools, I wouldnt say they were common but they certainly exist in my area.

Galaxy

I work into a number of specialist units attached to primary schools, I wouldnt say they were common but they certainly exist in my area.

That's good. I was thinking of some of the old-fashioned primary schools in my area, where there just isn't the land to build a new unit. A primary school with 200 pupils just wouldn't have enough of its own pupils to justify a special unit with the highly trained, specialist staff some children need.

I will come clean, although I am always wary of that on the internet, I work in inclusion have done for 10 years, although most of my career was spent in management of specialist services. I think there are many children who need specialist provision but I have also seen the benefits of mainstream for many many children. I am in early years so that is also a factor to take into consideration. Pretty much all children with disabilities in early years are in the mainstream sector if they are in an education setting, the provision Glorianny describes i.e physio, speech therapy, etc exists in the early years because it has to.
I couldnt sit on the fence more if I tried.
There are many things in the send green paper that have caused me concern.