Is the LP changing its stance on 'gender'?

Thank you for an interesting discussion. You can all go back to agreeing with one another.

Exactly*Doodledog*.

If you have a coherent point to make DaisyAnne please make it.

Or is your point just "I find these threads boring, you are all silly, and I came on here to be annoying.'?

Just where did I "propose" this *Galaxy. Please quote before I report your insulting post.

What? How has Galaxy insulted you (or anyone), and for what might you report her?

You have called people extremist, claim that we insist on having society run on their beliefs, are untrustworthy and something about sacrificing children, and you say Galaxy is insulting?

As for so-called 'Intersex' people - they are not so little known as you seem to think, but they have often said that they do not wish to be referred to as such. There is a lot of information out there, but this is from Amnesty's Website and is very straightforward:
The word “intersex” relates to physical sexual characteristics, and not to an internal sense of identity. An intersex person may also identify as trans, but they are separate things, because gender and sex are separate.

You appear to be arguing for arguing's sake, as apart from your own insulting comments you have not contributed an opinion, or joined in any discussion - in fact all you have done is derail the one that was going on.

Why is Galaxy’s post insulting? Genuine question. Why does it need reporting ?

I don’t see extremists, I see people struggling with complex situations. I realise if this is seen as two extreme sides, I’m with the so called terfs. I find that incredibly insulting, also untrue.

Elegran sets out clearly what is a man, what is female, a woman. It’s not that complicated. No one on any of these threads who would be labelled gender critical (me) dismisses the rights of trans people. What we share is the desire that the hard fought for rights of women to have safe spaces, to ge able to compete in sports with other women, not trans womene who went through puberty etc etc etc.

And while you are about it Galaxy, please tell me where I said it was extremist to think the earth is not flat, or extremist to have concerns about climate change.

If you have a womb and breasts you are a woman, if you have testicles and a penis you’re a man. I don’t care what or how you want to twist that to fit in with your wishes. Certainly don’t want it at forefront of politics.

Galaxy

I am afraid it is the level you proposed Daisy Anne. It's not one I agree with obviously. It's not extremist to think the earth is not flat, it's not extremist to have concerns about climate change, it's not extremist to know you cant change sex and that women need some spaces (in very few areas of need) which are segregated by sex. These are not extremist positions.

Just where did I "propose" this *Galaxy. Please quote before I report your insulting post.

I don't think you will ever rid society of extremists FarNorth. They exist on every topic. I/we can only hope for a government that shares the views of the majority. Extremists are always a minority unless the government is extreme.

Elegran

My two previous posts are intended to set out the definitions of male and female, since so many people seem unable to differentiate them. I wonder whether prehistoric cavemen had the same problems?

Who has a problem? It seems to be the extremists are the ones with the problem. Your form of extremism and those at the other end of the scale. Two small groups who insist society is run on their "beliefs". Societies were made to sacrifice their children based on beliefs. I for one would not trust such people if they ever get any form of power.

Sex is a spectrum moving from male to female. Some people are defined medically as 'intersex', i.e. between sexes. Some intersex people have both testes and ovaries. This has not always been widely known about. Now we would behave towards them as they would chose us to. How do you know that some of those, who define themselves as not of the sex they appear to be, don't have a strong sense of something we have not yet uncovered? You cannot.

Making your opinions into an act of belief to which you insist we must all agree is worrying to say the least. You may be right. Equally, you may be wrong; we simply do not know at this time but closed minds will never not help those having to deal with this.

DaisyAnne how do you suggest society should proceed, in order not to be 'extreme'?

Do you believe people should have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in order to be considered trans?

Are you in favour of self-id of sex?

Or what?

Agreed. And I'll add that it doesn't invalidate an argument to extrapolate belief from an understanding of facts. If there is no factual underpinning it becomes a matter of faith; but that's not what we are talking about here.

I am afraid it is the level you proposed Daisy Anne. It's not one I agree with obviously. It's not extremist to think the earth is not flat, it's not extremist to have concerns about climate change, it's not extremist to know you cant change sex and that women need some spaces (in very few areas of need) which are segregated by sex. These are not extremist positions.

Galaxy

How do you suggest we form legislation on this basis. The science around climate change may alter so we shouldnt act? After all we need to keep an open mind.

Really? Do you need to get down to that level on a day like today?

Elegran

My two previous posts are intended to set out the definitions of male and female, since so many people seem unable to differentiate them. I wonder whether prehistoric cavemen had the same problems?

Not according to Brian Bilston in his moving ode to Caveman love. It's a tragic tale, I'm sure you'll agree; but it shows that both the eponymous Caveman and Tim Next Door were able to differentiate, presumably with little scientific knowledge.

How could I have overlooked Alberta Zweistein Mollygo?

Elegran Excellently put.

"The mind that opens up to a new idea never returns to its original size."
“The mind that alters biological facts to suit its own purpose , shrinks, and never returns to its original size.” Alberta Zweistein

My two previous posts are intended to set out the definitions of male and female, since so many people seem unable to differentiate them. I wonder whether prehistoric cavemen had the same problems?

Adult females are humans who have the reproductive systems which potentially can contribute large gametes (eggs) to the forming of that new individual.

They have ovaries to produce large gametes (eggs), and Fallopian tubes down which the eggs travel to the uterus, and, if they have been fertilized on their journey, attach themselves to the wall of that uterus, where they are protected and nourished until they have finished developing and are viable to survive separately. If the egg does not attach itself, it is ejected, as is the thickened lining of the uterus, as mentrual flow.

Females can carry a foetus to term and nourish it, and give birth to a new individual, and experience the regular cleansing of the womb lining as mentrual flow.

Females contribute one of their two X chromosomes (one of which they had recieved from their mother, the other from their father) to a new individual. They cannot contribute the Y chromosome which defines a male.

The equivalent section of their DNA contains two X chromosomes where male DNA has an X and a Y. At puberty hormones make their bodies rounder and softer than a male, with larger breasts and wider hips. The long leg bones join the pelvis at a different angle to males. The pelvis itself is wider, providing a wider passage for the new individual to be born into the world. Their skull is a different shape from a male's, at the eye sockets and the chinline, their adam's apple is smaller, their arms and legs shorter, their muscle mass less. Their voices are less deep, their head, face and body hair differently distributed.

Adult females have been defined as "women" for millenia.

FarNorth

It was DaisyAnne who brought 'extremes' into this thread.

I was talking about those with extremist views. Usually, a minority on any topic, the extremist exists at either end of the spectrum of thinking. Those in the centre will be far greater in number. This thread has shown that a "belief" driven minority will always attempt to stop alternative points of view.

Adult males are humans of the type who have reproductive systems which potentially can contribute small gametes (sperm) to the forming of a new individual. They have a penis. and a scrotum containing a gland that makes and delivers those small gametes, and a prostate gland.

They have no uterus, cervix or vagina, (so they are not likely to suffer from uterine or cervical cancer, or need a cervical smear) They do not produce eggs, so have no menstrual cycle.

They can also be distinguished by their DNA, part of which consists of a pair of chromosomes of which one is of type X and the other type Y.

They have a third series of distinguishing features which develop at puberty, under the influence of hormones. Shoulders grow wider than females, hips narrower. Feet and hands become larger, the skull develops differently at the eye sockets and jawline, and the Adams apple becomes more prominent. Voices deepen and personalities become more assertive under the influence of testosterone. Testosterone also works on muscle tissue, causing males to develop muscle mass far more easily and effectively that females.

Adult males have been defined as "men" for millenia.

"The mind that opens up to a new idea never returns to its original size."

- Albert Einstein.

I have opened my mind to the new idea that transwomen may be women and have reasoned that it is incorrect.

Do you suggest that Einstein completely accepted every new idea that came his/her/their way?
Do you completely accept every new idea that comes your way?

There are a lot of statistics showing that male people can be dangerous to female people.
If you think that 'male' & 'female' are confusing terms and you don't know what they mean, that could be rephrased to say that there are a lot of statistics showing that people who were born with a penis can be dangerous to people who were born with a vulva.
For that reason, there have been laws made to attempt to protect the people born with a vulva.

Until a way is found to remove that danger completely, or almost completely, it is foolhardy to claim that some of the people who were born with a penis can be considered to be the same as the people who were born with a vulva.

How do you suggest we form legislation on this basis. The science around climate change may alter so we shouldnt act? After all we need to keep an open mind.

So we are extremists but you now seem to be open to the possibility that the earth is flat.

DaisyAnne

Doodledog

The LP is questioning and testing all the input they are getting, as far as I can see and based on my bias to want that to be the case. I am not an LP member or supporter. However, I would have thought that by nature and by learning, that is what Starmer would do.
Cross-posted - apologies.

I would have thought so too, and as a LP member and supporter, I also want it to be the case, which is why I am disappointed and confused. I believe that Starmer knows perfectly well that only women have cervixes, for instance, but is afraid to say so as that risks annoying a vociferous and influential minority. But we are going round in circles and squaring none of them, as there is nothing concrete in your posts with which to agree or disagree.

Back to your insistence on belief Doodledog, so nothing more for me to say.

Well what are the facts? Starmer is well educated. He is married to a woman. He is surrounded by both women and men in his work.

Does that lead you to even suspect that he won't know basic biology?

Facts on their own are useless - all they can do is guide us towards belief, as your comment about believing that 'by nature and learning that is what he would do' so clearly shows.