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Is the LP changing its stance on 'gender'?

(393 Posts)
Doodledog Sun 17-Jul-22 23:17:30

I've thought for a while that the worm was turning when it comes to 'trans' issues. It is finally getting through that support for self-id is misogynistic and that gender-criticism is not the same as transphobia. Slowly but surely, court cases and policy changes are moving towards (to my mind) a more sensible approach.

Ironically for many women I know who are broadly left-wing, it has been the Tories who have caught on to this first, and it's interesting that at least two of the leadership candidates have mentioned 'gender politics' or 'culture wars' in their campaigns. Meanwhile, the LP has been woefully behind the times, with idiotic comments about men having cervixes and how transpeople are the most marginalised group in society.

But now it appears that they realise that they are behind the curve, and that many feminists and female-supporting men will struggle to vote for them - or maybe it's that they realise that it's becoming more acceptable to speak against the tyranny, and they are now saying what they really think. Either way (and I speak as a member of the LP) it's not a good look, but it's a better look than the craven adherence to Stonewall's No Debate mantra that we've seen so far.

This is from James Kirkup in the Spectator and for those who don't like links the text is at the bottom of the post.

It's probably obvious that I would be delighted if the LP did a U -turn on this. I'm not delighted at the display of what I see as cowardice that has held sway for so long, but it will be such a relief to be able to vote for the party whose policies are closer to my heart than any of the others without fearing that by doing so I am betraying my daughter and future generations of women.

What do others think? Am I being naively optimistic? Will the Lib Dems, the Greens and SNP rethink their ideas ahead of the GE? Will any of it make a difference to how you vote, or do you think that it isn't important compared to other issues?

Here is the text of the Spectator article:

Amid the noise of the Tory leadership fight, some significant comments in the papers could be missed today. Here’s the quote, from a Sunday Times interview with an intelligent, ambitious female politician in her forties:

“Biology is important. A woman is somebody with a biology that is different from a man’s biology. We’re seeing in sport sensible decisions being made about who cannot compete in certain cases."

Could it reflect a new approach to trans issues from the Labour leadership?
She says she would ‘have a problem’ with someone with male genitals identifying as a woman and using a female changing space, and isn’t entirely sold on the use of gender pronouns. ‘You don’t have to say to someone, “Shall I call you he or she?” – it’s pretty obvious. But there are also difficult cases of somebody who is born as one sex and defines as another. I wouldn’t want to deny their right to define themselves in the way they want to be defined.’

Even by the standards of recent days, that’s pretty punchy. In particular that line on rejecting pronouns because ‘it’s pretty obvious’ strikes me as potentially controversial. I certainly know people and groups who would find that offensive. No candidate in the Tory race has thus been so outspoken on sex and gender. So are those quotes above yet another Conservative attempt to stoke a culture war?

That phrase has been used a lot recently, generally with disapproval and often by people keen to dismiss the concerns that some women raise about the impact of trans-rights policies on their rights and standing. And framing women’s concerns as the product of right-wing, social conservative politics makes them easier for lots of people in politics and the media to ignore and denigrate those concerns as marginal and ideological.

Of course, there’s nothing illegitimate about being either right-wing or socially conservative (I’m neither) but in much of our public discourse, those things are routinely denigrated, put beyond the pale of acceptability. So it’s significant that the author of those comments above cannot possibly be described as a right-winger or a social conservative. She is Rachel Reeves, Labour’s shadow chancellor.

The fact that Reeves, as smart and decent a politician as you’ll find in the Commons today, has said these things could have many implications. Could it strain Labour unity? It’s pretty hard to reconcile those comments with the position of some of her frontbench colleagues.

Could it reflect a new approach to trans issues from the Labour leadership? Reeves is today taking a much clearer line than Sir Keir Starmer, who has been more equivocal. I don’t know the answer to those questions, which can wait for another day.

My point here today is simpler. Rachel Reeves, the Labour shadow chancellor, has backed banning transwomen from women’s sport and excluding them from women’s spaces. And she’s rejected using gendered pronouns. By doing so, Reeves has provided yet more evidence to prove that concerns about trans rights policies and their impact on women’s rights are not right-wing or conservative. Nor are they marginal or ideological.
James Kirkup

Chewbacca Mon 18-Jul-22 00:08:25

Oh I'd love to think so Doodledog, I really would. I know that I cannot vote for the Tories, no matter how much their views on the trans issues chimes with my own. I'd really like to think that this is a genuine about turn by the Labour party and the article you reference gives me some optimism.

Doodledog Mon 18-Jul-22 00:16:38

That's the thing - it's not a party political issue, which is why it's such a shame that the politicians have split the way they have.

Doodledog Mon 18-Jul-22 00:19:58

That's the thing - it's not a party political issue, which is why it's such a shame that the politicians have split the way they have.

That doesn't really make sense, does it? grin. I meant that the issue is not one of right or left thinking (in the sense of the liberal/authoritarian and large/small state axes), and voters of all persuasions are for or against - it's the politicians who have gone all 'three line whip' over it.

Mollygo Mon 18-Jul-22 01:54:52

I think the truth that sex and gender aren’t the same thing and that harm is being done to females by some transwomen by practices currently allowed or demanded is gradually filtering through to all political groups. The knowledge that votes will be lost by refusing to admit that is a powerful incentive to change stance.

DavePortnoy Mon 18-Jul-22 02:23:14

Message deleted by Gransnet for breaking our forum guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

SunshineSally Mon 18-Jul-22 02:50:36

Reported

Mollygo Mon 18-Jul-22 07:13:56

Reported again.

Oldwoman70 Mon 18-Jul-22 07:25:45

Oh dear - another loser trying to shock the grans! Doesn't work my friend, we were teenagers in the 60s and 70s there is nothing we haven't seen, heard, said or done

Pammie1 Mon 18-Jul-22 07:30:41

Message deleted by Gransnet. Quotes deleted post

Chewbacca Mon 18-Jul-22 07:36:03

We've had some interesting posts from out American cousins this weekend haven't we? hmm

nadateturbe Mon 18-Jul-22 07:37:42

Reported

DiamondLily Mon 18-Jul-22 09:09:33

It must be the heat sending so many people nuts. ?

Doodledog Mon 18-Jul-22 09:32:24

Good grief, what's going on? If anyone would like to let me know, that would be good, please. I was happy to see there had been replies, but it seems that most of them were trolls.

M0nica Mon 18-Jul-22 09:56:32

Extremists have gone all political on itransgender issues, trying to make the political parties accept their views. The politicians didn't really have an option.

What I would like to see even more would be the Labour Party voting for leaders that are not consistently white, male, metropolitans.

It is the Conservatives that have had 2 female Prime Ministers, the first one over 40 years ago and at the last count its 5 leadership contender included 3 women, 2 men, only one of whom is white, one British man of Asian origin and a British born woman of African origin.

It is also the party that stood up to the Transgender extremists. Pity I disagree with so many of its policies because it is the party actually doing what it preaches on equality issues

DiamondLily Mon 18-Jul-22 09:57:10

Doodledog

Good grief, what's going on? If anyone would like to let me know, that would be good, please. I was happy to see there had been replies, but it seems that most of them were trolls.

It's been odd on the Estrangement forum. Nasty, abusive posts, following "odd" opening posts, where advice is sought and then it all kicks off.?

GN have pulled the latest one - I guess some people are bored.

Iam64 Mon 18-Jul-22 10:33:54

Thanks for this post Doodledog. Here’s hoping the LP is realising the need to address this by reaching consensus on a sensible, grounded policy.

I like Starmer and my impression is he’s been trying to avoid being ambushed (not by a cake). He knows the law too well and needs to respond like an ordinary person

Doodledog Mon 18-Jul-22 11:03:53

Thanks for the updates. What is wrong with people?

Anyway - yes Iam, I think you're right that Starmer is treading a fine line, and I understand that he doesn't want to alienate people, but kowtowing to the TRAs just makes him look a bit daft, IMO. He's an intelligent person, as are David Lammy and the others, and I'd bet my last pound that they are fully aware of what a cervix is, and what the question meant. Of course, he also understood that it was also a booby trap and if he's answered honestly he risked being accused of excluding transpeople, whose cervix-having is appropriate to their sex, and not their acquired 'gender'. It's the tail wagging the dog, isn't it?

I'd have a lot more respect for someone who said that only women have cervixes, as this is the truth (although it's come to something when it is politicians and not gynaecologists being asked an opinion on this). He could even have qualified it by saying that not all women have them, and left it at that. That would include those who have had hysterectomies, and would also be a nod to the sensitivities of transwomen. I suppose that's the trouble with journalists insisting on yes/no answers, though. Sometimes an answer does need qualification, even when it's blindingly simple. [bangs head against nearest wall].

In other news, I saw on Jeremy Vine that Manchester University has included terms such as mum, dad, sister and brother on a list of 'banned' words as they are 'not inclusive'. I haven't checked out the detail, but it seems that whatever the politicians do there is still a lunatic fringe that has influenced institutions all over the place.

maddyone Mon 18-Jul-22 11:20:57

I think that this shouldn’t be a political issue really, but it seems that it has become political. I agree with Doodledog, it certainly has come to something when politicians rather than gynaecologists are asked questions about this. Professor Winston has no doubts about what a woman is, I’ve heard him speak on Question Time and other forums about this very subject.

Doodledog Mon 18-Jul-22 14:17:06

It's political because there are policies in place, and because if Stonewall get their way there will be more to come. I wouldn't really care what Keir or Angela or any of them thought on a personal level* if they weren't fighting to get the power which would allow them to make self-id a legal right, and (potentially) to make it illegal for a man with full beard and male pattern baldness to be refused access to a women's changing room or a female hospital ward, just because he says he's a woman. Ditto things like competing in UK sports teams and taking places in all-female shortlists.

*I don't believe for a moment that they have any doubts that sex is immutable, incidentally - or that 'gender' is assigned at birth. They are not idiots, but I wish they were being less cowardly.

Chewbacca Mon 18-Jul-22 16:00:29

A disappointing response from Angela Rayner:

Angela Rayner's passionate response as this trans caller asks if a Labour Government would "fix" transphobia in the UK. She replied "trans right are women's rights"

twitter.com/lbc/status/1549000583742455809?s=21&t=qgvRnVgFhJgygk_b4Qxg2w

Labour has a long way to go before they get my vote.

MerylStreep Mon 18-Jul-22 16:21:55

chewbacca
1984 springs to mind. Not a one of them, Tory or Labour have the slightest idea of how the man in the street feels on these issues.

Doodledog Mon 18-Jul-22 16:34:09

How depressing.

maddyone Mon 18-Jul-22 17:15:15

God help women if there ever is a law passed that makes it illegal for a woman to object to men being allowed in women’s wards in hospitals, or to sharing a cell in a prison with a male. I also feel a transman (in other words, a woman) was put into a male prison or a male ward that she/he would be very much at risk, especially in a prison.

FarNorth Mon 18-Jul-22 18:25:39

The woman in the street feels even more strongly.