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Is the LP changing its stance on 'gender'?

(394 Posts)
Doodledog Sun 17-Jul-22 23:17:30

I've thought for a while that the worm was turning when it comes to 'trans' issues. It is finally getting through that support for self-id is misogynistic and that gender-criticism is not the same as transphobia. Slowly but surely, court cases and policy changes are moving towards (to my mind) a more sensible approach.

Ironically for many women I know who are broadly left-wing, it has been the Tories who have caught on to this first, and it's interesting that at least two of the leadership candidates have mentioned 'gender politics' or 'culture wars' in their campaigns. Meanwhile, the LP has been woefully behind the times, with idiotic comments about men having cervixes and how transpeople are the most marginalised group in society.

But now it appears that they realise that they are behind the curve, and that many feminists and female-supporting men will struggle to vote for them - or maybe it's that they realise that it's becoming more acceptable to speak against the tyranny, and they are now saying what they really think. Either way (and I speak as a member of the LP) it's not a good look, but it's a better look than the craven adherence to Stonewall's No Debate mantra that we've seen so far.

This is from James Kirkup in the Spectator and for those who don't like links the text is at the bottom of the post.

It's probably obvious that I would be delighted if the LP did a U -turn on this. I'm not delighted at the display of what I see as cowardice that has held sway for so long, but it will be such a relief to be able to vote for the party whose policies are closer to my heart than any of the others without fearing that by doing so I am betraying my daughter and future generations of women.

What do others think? Am I being naively optimistic? Will the Lib Dems, the Greens and SNP rethink their ideas ahead of the GE? Will any of it make a difference to how you vote, or do you think that it isn't important compared to other issues?

Here is the text of the Spectator article:

Amid the noise of the Tory leadership fight, some significant comments in the papers could be missed today. Here’s the quote, from a Sunday Times interview with an intelligent, ambitious female politician in her forties:

“Biology is important. A woman is somebody with a biology that is different from a man’s biology. We’re seeing in sport sensible decisions being made about who cannot compete in certain cases."

Could it reflect a new approach to trans issues from the Labour leadership?
She says she would ‘have a problem’ with someone with male genitals identifying as a woman and using a female changing space, and isn’t entirely sold on the use of gender pronouns. ‘You don’t have to say to someone, “Shall I call you he or she?” – it’s pretty obvious. But there are also difficult cases of somebody who is born as one sex and defines as another. I wouldn’t want to deny their right to define themselves in the way they want to be defined.’

Even by the standards of recent days, that’s pretty punchy. In particular that line on rejecting pronouns because ‘it’s pretty obvious’ strikes me as potentially controversial. I certainly know people and groups who would find that offensive. No candidate in the Tory race has thus been so outspoken on sex and gender. So are those quotes above yet another Conservative attempt to stoke a culture war?

That phrase has been used a lot recently, generally with disapproval and often by people keen to dismiss the concerns that some women raise about the impact of trans-rights policies on their rights and standing. And framing women’s concerns as the product of right-wing, social conservative politics makes them easier for lots of people in politics and the media to ignore and denigrate those concerns as marginal and ideological.

Of course, there’s nothing illegitimate about being either right-wing or socially conservative (I’m neither) but in much of our public discourse, those things are routinely denigrated, put beyond the pale of acceptability. So it’s significant that the author of those comments above cannot possibly be described as a right-winger or a social conservative. She is Rachel Reeves, Labour’s shadow chancellor.

The fact that Reeves, as smart and decent a politician as you’ll find in the Commons today, has said these things could have many implications. Could it strain Labour unity? It’s pretty hard to reconcile those comments with the position of some of her frontbench colleagues.

Could it reflect a new approach to trans issues from the Labour leadership? Reeves is today taking a much clearer line than Sir Keir Starmer, who has been more equivocal. I don’t know the answer to those questions, which can wait for another day.

My point here today is simpler. Rachel Reeves, the Labour shadow chancellor, has backed banning transwomen from women’s sport and excluding them from women’s spaces. And she’s rejected using gendered pronouns. By doing so, Reeves has provided yet more evidence to prove that concerns about trans rights policies and their impact on women’s rights are not right-wing or conservative. Nor are they marginal or ideological.
James Kirkup

Doodledog Wed 27-Jul-22 17:56:03

Sorry, FN, we cross posted - I've just seen your post. I wasn't being rude and ignoring it.

Rosie the pond example reminds me of India Willoughby deliberately using the Ladies to 'make a point', when there was a unisex one so that women could use one of their own. It's power play, pure and simple.

All the same, not accepting a link between the attitude to gay people 'in the past' and an apparent reluctance by some to assume that a child is trans because they do things that are stereotypically associated with the other sex does not indicate a lack of acceptance of transpeople, and however many times I read it, I can't see how Glorianny arrived at that unpleasant conclusion.

FarNorth Wed 27-Jul-22 17:53:58

prefer to make the ladies pond mixed sex

I think it's worse than that since there is a pretence that the pond is for women and each individual male person there is pretending to be a woman.

I would go to a mixed pond rather than that.

FarNorth Wed 27-Jul-22 17:50:18

For anyone who can't see twitter -

Rosie51 Wed 27-Jul-22 17:41:39

I haven't actually come across any situation where my rights as a woman and a transwoman's rights have been in conflict

Maybe you haven't but many women have. This one for example. twitter.com/cath_heseltine/status/1549724112045707278
There are 3 ponds at Hampstead Heath one designated men only, one designated mixed, and one designated ladies only. The ladies one happily admits self ID'd transwomen with beards and penises. I would think this counts as a conflict between the rights of the muslim woman and the transwoman. Transwomen could easily use the mixed pond which wouldn't impact on anyone else but prefer to make the ladies pond mixed sex. Why would you do that, especially knowing it will impact someone of the sex into which you want to identify?

Doodledog Wed 27-Jul-22 16:48:29

Rights of women extend way beyond single sex lavatories, though. And again, it is not about a penis being displayed - it is about the danger that is posed by having intact men in places where women and girls are vulnerable, whether in a state of undress (as in a changing room or cubicle), in a locked prison cell, or in a hospital ward when they are ill. I'm not one of the 'some people' who confuse rights with practices - I can tell the difference, but suggest that the rights to privacy, dignity and safety are threatened by the practice of allowing intact men to undress near vulnerable women.

I agree that all groups in society deserve equality. Where have I said otherwise? Can you please explain how my comment (quoted by you in italics) contradicts this, and how it makes you feel that it shows a lack of acceptance of transpeople, as I can't see that at all, and find the comment offensive.

FarNorth Wed 27-Jul-22 16:46:12

Transwomen are a group of male people, not female people, that's the difference between them & gay people.
Gay people were not trying to insert themselves into anywhere they had not been going already.

In case anyone says "Transwomen have been in women's facilities for ever." I'll say that those transwomen genuinely were a tiny minority of people with gender dysphoria.
Now, admittance to all 'female only places' is increasingly being given to absolutely any male person who claims to be a woman.

Also, transwomen were not in women's refuges, prisons or hospital wards as everyone recognised they are male.

Glorianny Wed 27-Jul-22 16:33:20

I haven't actually come across any situation where my rights as a woman and a transwoman's rights have been in conflict. I realise some people have said they have had problems with a transwoman displaying a penis in a woman's changing room , but I wouldn't see that as a conflict of rights. I don't really want to see any genitals displayed of either sex. I never liked communal changing rooms in shops when it was just my underwear on show. I didn't use them. Should my sensitivity be regarded as a reason to stop women stripping off?
Is that my rights as a woman in conflict with other women's rights? Should I protest about it? Or just look for cubicles to change in?
I think some people confuse rights with accepted practices . The two are very different.

As you obviously don't accept trans people Wrt homosexuality being acceptable now having anything to do with trans issues, I would simply say that acceptance of gay people is a good thing, and not drag that acceptance kicking and screaming towards being used to further arguments about trans issues,
I would point out that it is simply the acceptance of differences and minorities. There are many different groups in society and all deserve equality. Recognising the fight one group has had, and looking at the problems another has, is nothing to do with the group itself, it's to do with the mindset that creates and encourages discrimination.

Doodledog Wed 27-Jul-22 14:22:12

Glorianny

Doodledog

Perhaps the question we should be asking is why we are so comfortable looking at a child now and saying that child is gay and yet still so uncomfortable looking at another child and saying that child is trans? Even 50 years ago either would have been unacceptable, now only one is.
Again, I don't think that this makes sense, and again you are making false equivalences.

Why not say 'Perhaps the question we should be asking is why we are so comfortable looking at a child now and saying that child is gay and yet still so uncomfortable looking at another child and saying that child is an alien*? Even 50 years ago either would have been unacceptable, now only one is.'

The fact that 50 years ago attitudes to gay people were atrocious does not have any relevance to what you seem to be suggesting is a modern reluctance to assume a child is trans. That was then, this is now, and trans issues are not about sexuality.

Furthermore, it seems to me that far from being reluctant to make that assumption there are those who are very willing to do so at the first suggestion that a child does not conform to 'gender' stereotypes.

*I shouldn't need to point this out, but before you accuse me of equating transpeople with aliens, that is absolutely not what I am doing.

It isn't a false equivalence if someone alleges that gender norms are being used to designate someone as trans instead of gay. I would say that very few people look at a child and say trans but many would now accept gay. So why is that?
I realise if you have problems with transpeople it is a difficult question to answer.

I would love to hear just one example of when you have put women's rights ahead of trans rights in a situation where there was no room for compromise. Just one.

As for the false equivalence - I have not said that gender norms are being used to 'designate' someone as trans instead of gay. I think that seeing a divergence from stereotypical gender norms as evidence of someone 'being in the wrong body' is a retrograde step, and I don't think it has anything to do with being gay, and if you read my post instead of looking for things to pick on you will see that I did not say that.

There really is no need to take such a sneering, patronising tone either, eg 'if you can't understand . . .' 'I realise that if you have difficulties with transpeople it is a difficult question. . .' etc. It is irritating but absolutely won't put me off replying, if that is your motive. If the motive is to make you look superior, it fails there, too - these things are so obviously said to be unpleasant, they weaken your argument and make you harder to take seriously.

I don't have 'difficulties with transpeople', and your persistent insistence that anyone who questions the TWAW mantra is discriminatory is transphobic is wearisome. Wrt homosexuality being acceptable now having anything to do with trans issues, I would simply say that acceptance of gay people is a good thing, and not drag that acceptance kicking and screaming towards being used to further arguments about trans issues, any more than I would use the fact that attitudes to some things have not changed as evidence that neither should others, or any other version of that that you bring up.

FarNorth Wed 27-Jul-22 14:05:08

Glorianny you said Perhaps the question we should be asking is why we are so comfortable looking at a child now and saying that child is gay and yet still so uncomfortable looking at another child and saying that child is trans?

I am not comfortable with either of those things.
It's up to the child, as they grow up, to decide/ realise that sort of thing about themself.
However, children & young people now are being presented with so much wrong information that is likely to lead them into damaging pathways.

What I understood DK to be saying is that children who do not fit stereotypes now have others encouraging them to believe they really are the opposite sex, and that many of those children would grow up to be gay, and not in need of any therapy or treatment.

My view is that stereotypes based on sex or gender should be abandoned - that is what is meant by 'gender-critical' - and that that would reduce a lot of problems.

Glorianny Wed 27-Jul-22 13:41:24

Mollygo

Glorianny- a nice predictable answer I’ve heard from you and a poster who used the same arguments as you do.
I realise if you have problems with transpeople it is a difficult question to answer.

Unless you are deliberately blind than you will have read the only complaints about trans-are where they want to erode women’s rights to things on a list mentioned by posters such as DD.
Are you saying that you have no objection to any of those trans who carry out such actions?
Do you support discrimination against women whilst remonstrating against your perception discrimination against trans who carry out such actions?
I hope those two questions are not to difficult to answer.

I'm saying I asked a reasonable question which some seem to find hard to answer. Being the thoughtful person I am I gave them a reason for not answering. The rest is your speculation.

The question still remains why is it OK now to say a child may be gay but not to say a child may be trans?

I don't support any form of discrimination by the way. Whatever the dubious or doubtful grounds for discriminating. I don't believe one person's rights are more important than any other persons, and I don't believe according one group of people rights has, or ever will, erode someone elses. Although this excuse has been used throughout history as an excuse for not according people equal rights.

Mollygo Wed 27-Jul-22 12:56:40

Glorianny- a nice predictable answer I’ve heard from you and a poster who used the same arguments as you do.
I realise if you have problems with transpeople it is a difficult question to answer.

Unless you are deliberately blind than you will have read the only complaints about trans-are where they want to erode women’s rights to things on a list mentioned by posters such as DD.
Are you saying that you have no objection to any of those trans who carry out such actions?
Do you support discrimination against women whilst remonstrating against your perception discrimination against trans who carry out such actions?
I hope those two questions are not to difficult to answer.

Glorianny Wed 27-Jul-22 12:47:14

Doodledog

*Perhaps the question we should be asking is why we are so comfortable looking at a child now and saying that child is gay and yet still so uncomfortable looking at another child and saying that child is trans? Even 50 years ago either would have been unacceptable, now only one is.*
Again, I don't think that this makes sense, and again you are making false equivalences.

Why not say 'Perhaps the question we should be asking is why we are so comfortable looking at a child now and saying that child is gay and yet still so uncomfortable looking at another child and saying that child is an alien*? Even 50 years ago either would have been unacceptable, now only one is.'

The fact that 50 years ago attitudes to gay people were atrocious does not have any relevance to what you seem to be suggesting is a modern reluctance to assume a child is trans. That was then, this is now, and trans issues are not about sexuality.

Furthermore, it seems to me that far from being reluctant to make that assumption there are those who are very willing to do so at the first suggestion that a child does not conform to 'gender' stereotypes.

*I shouldn't need to point this out, but before you accuse me of equating transpeople with aliens, that is absolutely not what I am doing.

It isn't a false equivalence if someone alleges that gender norms are being used to designate someone as trans instead of gay. I would say that very few people look at a child and say trans but many would now accept gay. So why is that?
I realise if you have problems with transpeople it is a difficult question to answer.

Glorianny Wed 27-Jul-22 12:44:07

Galaxy

They werent judged on that, the whistleblowers were very brave, particularly their safeguarding lead if I remember correctly.

I know that but your complaint was about the jokes they made.

Doodledog Wed 27-Jul-22 11:03:03

Perhaps the question we should be asking is why we are so comfortable looking at a child now and saying that child is gay and yet still so uncomfortable looking at another child and saying that child is trans? Even 50 years ago either would have been unacceptable, now only one is.
Again, I don't think that this makes sense, and again you are making false equivalences.

Why not say 'Perhaps the question we should be asking is why we are so comfortable looking at a child now and saying that child is gay and yet still so uncomfortable looking at another child and saying that child is an alien*? Even 50 years ago either would have been unacceptable, now only one is.'

The fact that 50 years ago attitudes to gay people were atrocious does not have any relevance to what you seem to be suggesting is a modern reluctance to assume a child is trans. That was then, this is now, and trans issues are not about sexuality.

Furthermore, it seems to me that far from being reluctant to make that assumption there are those who are very willing to do so at the first suggestion that a child does not conform to 'gender' stereotypes.

*I shouldn't need to point this out, but before you accuse me of equating transpeople with aliens, that is absolutely not what I am doing.

Galaxy Wed 27-Jul-22 10:56:49

They werent judged on that, the whistleblowers were very brave, particularly their safeguarding lead if I remember correctly.

Glorianny Wed 27-Jul-22 10:48:29

Galaxy

Thank God they arent ignoring it. They failed their inspection and there is an ongoing report on what was going on there.

If you judged by the jokes medics make you would close down every surgical unit in the country. Surgeons are notorious for their black humour.

Galaxy Wed 27-Jul-22 10:42:36

Thank God they arent ignoring it. They failed their inspection and there is an ongoing report on what was going on there.

Doodledog Wed 27-Jul-22 10:04:56

I understand that I can't speak for huge numbers of people, as their attitudes will be as individual as they are. I also understand that the attitudes prevalent in 1969 at the time of the riots are likely to have shifted by 1989 when Stonewall the pressure group was formed, and that in any case, Stonewall is simply the name of a UK pressure group named after the riots that took place a whole 20 years before its inception - it is not linked to stereotypes of the attitudes that may have held sway in NY at the time of the riots. I further understand that even 1989 was 33 years ago, and that Stonewall itself has changed a lot since then.

I am not the one saying that all gay (or straight or anything else) people think alike - I am in fact disagreeing with your suggestion that this is the case. I don't think it is my understanding that is lacking here, but I can understand when I am being patronised.

Some gay people might think the Earth is flat - that won't make them right, and nor would it have the square root of b*gger all to do with the LP's stance on gender issues or the agenda that Stonewall has in the 21st Century. So I'm still unsure what your point was in your post of Tue 26-Jul-22 21:42:23.

Glorianny Wed 27-Jul-22 10:03:48

FarNorth

*Glorianny*, Doodledog and Galaxy have put it very well.
Your comments seem to be unrelated to the article I posted.

The article, as you'll have read, is saying that young children are being thought to be trans because of their not conforming to current sex-role stereotypes, whereas it's possible they could be gay.
(Perhaps you've heard that Tavistock medics had an unpleasant 'joke' about how they 'trans the gay away'.)

As that article seemed to be what spurred you into the unrelated comments about gay white men, I hoped you might have a view on its actual content.

As I have said FarNorth there is historically an ideology amongst the gay community that says trans people are just gay people who are trying to fit with het norms. I don't think all gay people think this, but I can see that someone who did could use the sex-role stereotypes to justify their thinking.
Of course it is possible they could be gay, it is equally possible they could be trans.
Perhaps the question we should be asking is why we are so comfortable looking at a child now and saying that child is gay and yet still so uncomfortable looking at another child and saying that child is trans? Even 50 years ago either would have been unacceptable, now only one is.
Until we can say it really doesn't matter sexual stereotypes will remain. Although many children will totally reject any concept projected onto them by adults anyway.

Medics always have awful jokes they are best ignored.

Glorianny Wed 27-Jul-22 09:51:42

Incidentally that has everything to do with the ideas that are currently being circulated and a lot to do with the history of trans and gay people. If you don't appreciate the history how can you possibly understand the problem?

Glorianny Wed 27-Jul-22 09:47:49

Doodledog

Glorianny

Galaxy

Crikey. I dont know how to respond to that really.

Well you could just try to appreciate that the Stonewall riots long publicised as a gay protest had transgender individuals at the forefront. They then called themselves transvestites. And that some gay men even then tried to keep them separate. So there is nothing new about the split. The divide has existed for ages.

What is your point here?

Stonewall, the UK gay pressure group was named after riots in the US that happened 20 years before it (the pressure group) was formed.

Whether or not people in the US at the time (1969 - 53 years ago!) felt that trans and gay people had common interests is, surely, neither here nor there? It certainly has nothing to do with whether or not the LP is changing its stance on 'gender' issues.

If you don't understand that there are gay people who subscribe to the philosophy that there are only two types of people -gay and straight and that other designations are just to do with conforming i.e trans people are gay people who are trying to conform to heterosexual society by changing their bodies, bisexual people are gays in denial, then you won't understand. It's this mistaken idea that all gay people think alike that makes this hard to understand, they don't.

FarNorth Wed 27-Jul-22 00:31:53

It was used by the Green Party in 2016. I don't know if they still do it.
I'm not seeing it in the Marsha Johnson article.?

"Feminists have attacked an invitation to “non-men” by the young women’s arm of the Green Party.

“Women/non-men who are Young Greens can find and join our Facebook group 'Young Greens Women'”, they tweeted on 26 March."

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/feminists-mock-green-party-young-women-s-invite-to-nonmen-a6987061.html

Doodledog Tue 26-Jul-22 23:52:05

Mollygo

Non-male It was a term mentioned in the info about Marsha Johnston.

I've come across non-male in relation to trans issues before - was it a Green Party faux pas? It was one of the things that tipped me from being broadly in the 'kind' camp into the 'are you serious??' one.

Rosie51 Tue 26-Jul-22 23:42:21

FarNorth for all those who want to validate transgender by comparison to clownfish grin

Mollygo Tue 26-Jul-22 23:38:00

Non-male It was a term mentioned in the info about Marsha Johnston.