Gransnet forums

News & politics

Is the LP changing its stance on 'gender'?

(394 Posts)
Doodledog Sun 17-Jul-22 23:17:30

I've thought for a while that the worm was turning when it comes to 'trans' issues. It is finally getting through that support for self-id is misogynistic and that gender-criticism is not the same as transphobia. Slowly but surely, court cases and policy changes are moving towards (to my mind) a more sensible approach.

Ironically for many women I know who are broadly left-wing, it has been the Tories who have caught on to this first, and it's interesting that at least two of the leadership candidates have mentioned 'gender politics' or 'culture wars' in their campaigns. Meanwhile, the LP has been woefully behind the times, with idiotic comments about men having cervixes and how transpeople are the most marginalised group in society.

But now it appears that they realise that they are behind the curve, and that many feminists and female-supporting men will struggle to vote for them - or maybe it's that they realise that it's becoming more acceptable to speak against the tyranny, and they are now saying what they really think. Either way (and I speak as a member of the LP) it's not a good look, but it's a better look than the craven adherence to Stonewall's No Debate mantra that we've seen so far.

This is from James Kirkup in the Spectator and for those who don't like links the text is at the bottom of the post.

It's probably obvious that I would be delighted if the LP did a U -turn on this. I'm not delighted at the display of what I see as cowardice that has held sway for so long, but it will be such a relief to be able to vote for the party whose policies are closer to my heart than any of the others without fearing that by doing so I am betraying my daughter and future generations of women.

What do others think? Am I being naively optimistic? Will the Lib Dems, the Greens and SNP rethink their ideas ahead of the GE? Will any of it make a difference to how you vote, or do you think that it isn't important compared to other issues?

Here is the text of the Spectator article:

Amid the noise of the Tory leadership fight, some significant comments in the papers could be missed today. Here’s the quote, from a Sunday Times interview with an intelligent, ambitious female politician in her forties:

“Biology is important. A woman is somebody with a biology that is different from a man’s biology. We’re seeing in sport sensible decisions being made about who cannot compete in certain cases."

Could it reflect a new approach to trans issues from the Labour leadership?
She says she would ‘have a problem’ with someone with male genitals identifying as a woman and using a female changing space, and isn’t entirely sold on the use of gender pronouns. ‘You don’t have to say to someone, “Shall I call you he or she?” – it’s pretty obvious. But there are also difficult cases of somebody who is born as one sex and defines as another. I wouldn’t want to deny their right to define themselves in the way they want to be defined.’

Even by the standards of recent days, that’s pretty punchy. In particular that line on rejecting pronouns because ‘it’s pretty obvious’ strikes me as potentially controversial. I certainly know people and groups who would find that offensive. No candidate in the Tory race has thus been so outspoken on sex and gender. So are those quotes above yet another Conservative attempt to stoke a culture war?

That phrase has been used a lot recently, generally with disapproval and often by people keen to dismiss the concerns that some women raise about the impact of trans-rights policies on their rights and standing. And framing women’s concerns as the product of right-wing, social conservative politics makes them easier for lots of people in politics and the media to ignore and denigrate those concerns as marginal and ideological.

Of course, there’s nothing illegitimate about being either right-wing or socially conservative (I’m neither) but in much of our public discourse, those things are routinely denigrated, put beyond the pale of acceptability. So it’s significant that the author of those comments above cannot possibly be described as a right-winger or a social conservative. She is Rachel Reeves, Labour’s shadow chancellor.

The fact that Reeves, as smart and decent a politician as you’ll find in the Commons today, has said these things could have many implications. Could it strain Labour unity? It’s pretty hard to reconcile those comments with the position of some of her frontbench colleagues.

Could it reflect a new approach to trans issues from the Labour leadership? Reeves is today taking a much clearer line than Sir Keir Starmer, who has been more equivocal. I don’t know the answer to those questions, which can wait for another day.

My point here today is simpler. Rachel Reeves, the Labour shadow chancellor, has backed banning transwomen from women’s sport and excluding them from women’s spaces. And she’s rejected using gendered pronouns. By doing so, Reeves has provided yet more evidence to prove that concerns about trans rights policies and their impact on women’s rights are not right-wing or conservative. Nor are they marginal or ideological.
James Kirkup

Glorianny Tue 26-Jul-22 14:53:58

Mollygo

Being gay and being trans are two different things. Some gay men do present in the stereotypical way that is still associated with being gay, thanks in the main to TV persona who made that stereotype more visible. I haven’t heard any gay men wanting to change gender.
Equally I haven’t heard any trans saying they want to remain the same sex, although that’s what they do.
Trans usually adopt stereotypical dress and behaviour of the opposite sex in order to appear as that gender.

OMG some mansplaining going on here. If you knew anything about the history of either group you would know that gay men (especially gay white men) discriminated against trans people for a long time, especially black and latino transwomen. Of course they are different that's the whole point. Both need to be accommodated and one castigating the other really is just prejudice.

Mollygo Tue 26-Jul-22 14:38:25

Being gay and being trans are two different things. Some gay men do present in the stereotypical way that is still associated with being gay, thanks in the main to TV persona who made that stereotype more visible. I haven’t heard any gay men wanting to change gender.
Equally I haven’t heard any trans saying they want to remain the same sex, although that’s what they do.
Trans usually adopt stereotypical dress and behaviour of the opposite sex in order to appear as that gender.

Glorianny Tue 26-Jul-22 14:17:49

Galaxy

If fighting stereotypes is prejudice then I am with the gay men.

But it isn't. It's saying if you want to change your body you are just gay with issues. There is a long history of prejudice and it is very unpleasant. It is trying to establish new barriers whilst pretending you are tearing them down.

Galaxy Tue 26-Jul-22 13:33:53

If fighting stereotypes is prejudice then I am with the gay men.

Glorianny Tue 26-Jul-22 12:45:58

FarNorth

An article by a gay man :

"Gender ideology teaches that boys and girls playing with toys typical for the opposite gender (as many of us who grow up to be gay did) are born wrong and into the wrong bodies. In so doing it locates the misery and challenges of not fitting in socially within the homosexual body. It says not that society should change and accept different kids or different people, but that the gender non-conforming homosexual must hate their body and change it by medicine to fit in with gender stereotypes we thought we had defeated in the 90s."

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/the-death-of-stonewall

Gay men (and particularly gay white men) have had problems with transition for years. It's nothing new. They are just redefining their prejudice.

FarNorth Tue 26-Jul-22 12:12:53

An article by a gay man :

"Gender ideology teaches that boys and girls playing with toys typical for the opposite gender (as many of us who grow up to be gay did) are born wrong and into the wrong bodies. In so doing it locates the misery and challenges of not fitting in socially within the homosexual body. It says not that society should change and accept different kids or different people, but that the gender non-conforming homosexual must hate their body and change it by medicine to fit in with gender stereotypes we thought we had defeated in the 90s."

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/the-death-of-stonewall

Smileless2012 Tue 26-Jul-22 09:54:09

It's a nonsense isn't it Rosie. Perhaps the activists who do this believe in the old 'divide and conquer' rule and hope to us against one another because together we are strong, and that's becoming more and more evident when it comes to this issue.

Rosie51 Tue 26-Jul-22 09:26:47

You make some good points MayBee70
but Then again there are comments that eg you can only be a woman if you have a womb. I think that isn't said by GC people at all. The truth that only women have wombs, cervixes, vaginas, menstruate etc to illustrate that men do not have these is deliberately turned by activists into "you must have a womb, menstruate etc or you're not a woman" which is plainly mad, and yes can be cruel. Why on earth would we exclude all post menopausal women from our sex.

MayBee70 Tue 26-Jul-22 09:14:15

Iam64

Hello MayBee70, good to see you on this trans thread. I don’t post often, others in what’s referred to as the trans critical group, do so clearly plus, I’ve a lot on at home, so less active on gransnet.
You’re right, it is emotive and quickly polarised. It’s a curiosity, that anyone expressing concerns about women’s safe spaces etc is often dismissed as a bigot. There have been comments that in the 70’s trans critical people would have been anti gay.

I was discussing it with DH last night. I pointed out to him that he’s not much bigger than me ( he disputes that but he really isn’t!) but he is so much stronger than me. Just jobs around the house, opening bottles etc that I can’t physically do he can do easily. And I guess that most of us have been in a situation where we’ve felt afraid and vulnerable. First time for me was when I was walking down a country lane and at the top of the lane was a flasher and I had nowhere to go. And then, at a crowded craft fair with my children a man started whispering obscenities in my ear and instead of calling him out because I had my children and someone else’s I just gathered the children up and left. I can still remember both instances vividly; the second one in particular still makes my flesh crawl. And I’m not someone that is eg scared of walking on my own or being alone at home. So how do women that have actually been physically attacked by a man feel? Then again there are comments that eg you can only be a woman if you have a womb. Well, that’s cruel because there is a condition in which a woman has been born with ovaries but no womb. So how do they feel when people say that? It’s very rare so not many people know about it. It’s going to be a big issue at the next election so I need to know where the Labour Party stands on it but it’s so complicated and the electorate just want simple answers.

Rosie51 Tue 26-Jul-22 09:02:40

Oops hadn't refreshed the page, point already made blush

Rosie51 Tue 26-Jul-22 09:01:14

There have been comments that in the 70’s trans critical people would have been anti gay another lazy, unsupported accusation totally ignoring the fact some of us were around then and absolutely backed gay rights! Also totally ignores that there are huge numbers of LGB people who also back women's rights to single sex spaces, fairness in sport, and that women's awards and short lists should only be open to biological women. A growing number of transgender people are publicly supporting women's rights, but I can totally understand that many prefer to stay under the radar.

Galaxy Tue 26-Jul-22 08:44:58

When the stereotypes rolled out are like something from the 1950's.

Iam64 Tue 26-Jul-22 08:43:41

Precisely so Far North. I’ve been beyond irritated at being dismissed as the wrong kind of feminist, somehow stuck in the 70’s unable to progress

FarNorth Tue 26-Jul-22 08:41:40

There have been comments that in the 70’s trans critical people would have been anti gay.
Which is ridiculous since many people who are concerned about this were supporters of gay rights in the 70s.
Also, because of the spread of trans ideology, many young gay people are now being misled into thinking they are trans - resulting in them having medical treatment that can damage their health (physical & mental health).

Iam64 Tue 26-Jul-22 08:26:28

Hello MayBee70, good to see you on this trans thread. I don’t post often, others in what’s referred to as the trans critical group, do so clearly plus, I’ve a lot on at home, so less active on gransnet.
You’re right, it is emotive and quickly polarised. It’s a curiosity, that anyone expressing concerns about women’s safe spaces etc is often dismissed as a bigot. There have been comments that in the 70’s trans critical people would have been anti gay.

Doodledog Mon 25-Jul-22 21:36:51

MayBee70 I think that the majority of people are pleased that gay people can live their best lives, and that women's rights were heading in the right direction before this all hit the fan.

The trouble is that if men are able to just say they feel like a woman (and most - if not all - are unable to define what that means) and be legally allowed to go anywhere they like, women's rights to safety and dignity will be eroded. If men can say they are women when there is a (rare) shortlist for a job role that is reserved for female candidates (usually because women are badly under-represented in that company) then women's employment rights will suffer. If men can compete against women in sport then that avenue will be closed to women who have trained for years. If research projects are hidebound because people can't be required to refer to themselves by their sex and use so-called 'gender' instead, then things like policies for education, housing and pensions (and many more) will not be accurate, we will not know whether women are getting a raw deal, and we will not be able to do anything about it if they are. The attacks on women's rights goes on and on.

This is not about prejudice or 'hysteria'. Women (such as JKR) who have spoken out have been threatened and hounded out of jobs. Feminist meetings have been broken up and the attendees intimidated. We are moving backwards at a time when across the world women's rights (to abortion in the US, to education and the right to work in Afghanistan and more) are rolling back.

Gay people's rights did not impinge on the rights of others. The insistence of many trans supporters on conflating the two different causes is disingenuous. Homophobia was simply prejudice. Wanting transwomen to accept that they are transwomen and not women is not about prejudice at all - it is about protecting the rights of women. Transmen (women who identify as men) get less attention, because they are not, generally, a threat to the rights of others.

You're absolutely right that it's an emotive subject grin.

FarNorth Mon 25-Jul-22 21:12:51

Here is what J K Rowling said. This was when Maya Forstater's employment contract as a lawyer was not renewed because her employers believed her to be transphobic.
MF's belief in the existence of two biological sexes has now been judged 'worthy of respect in a democratic society' and she has since won a case for Unfair Dismissal.

JKR has since expanded on her views and the reasons for them.

mobile.twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1207646162813100033?lang=en-GB

MayBee70 Mon 25-Jul-22 20:55:54

It’s such an emotive subject isn’t it. And I do want to understand what people go through. Maybe we’re still working our way through womens rights ( ie women still aren’t treated equally) and ‘me too’ etc. I’m so happy that people can be openly gay and same sex marriage is allowed. I used to worry so much that my children might be gay; not that it would have bothered me but I just wanted their lives to be happy. Even back then they had friends who were obviously gay but didn’t feel comfortable about being open about it. It’s so much better now. But it’s all so complicated now. And I don’t understand why so many people have turned against JK Rowling?

Doodledog Mon 25-Jul-22 18:14:26

No, I don't think that is offensive - it's natural to feel uneasy when something isn't 'right', and with very few exceptions, transwomen do look male - because they are. And that's without the ones who say they are women but still have beards and receding hair.

There is that, coupled with the fact that, like it or not, women are vulnerable in public loos. It's not a case of quickly zipping up and either running off or fighting off an attacker - we have underwear issues to deal with, and probably have bags and other things to sort out too.

I think your feelings are justified, MayBee70,

MayBee70 Mon 25-Jul-22 18:06:25

There’s so much happening politically these days that I can’t quite keep up with it all so have tended to avoid transgender issues. I know I need to understand it more. The one thing I will say ( and I hope that doesn’t offend anyone) is that if I was on my own in a toilet (eg in a station where there are usually not many people using it at any one time) and someone who looked very masculine came in I’d feel a bit scared.

Elegran Mon 25-Jul-22 14:07:57

People manufacture start threads because they have seen something in the news, read an article or had a thought which they wish to bring to the attention of other posters. This is "continuing the discussion", yes. What is wrong with that? If you wish to continue the discussion too, you are free to post. If you don't, there is no obligation to.

Doodledog Mon 25-Jul-22 14:06:47

Glorianny

I never said the gender critical shut down discussions. I said they manufacture threads so they can continue to post their views and it's not worth engaging. I do wish you could get at least one thing right.

How rude.

As Molly says, all threads are manufactured, if that's how you want to describe them. I don't start many, but this one is asking a question. It got derailed when accusations of extremism on both sides started, as they were not accompanied by an opinion or contribution, and went downhill from there when people were 'advised' not to post on threads:
There is a group on GN determined to keep posting their views over and over again. Like the child that screams to have its own way, they yell "Agree with me"at the top of their voice and pretend they want to discuss when all they really want is to confirm each others prejudices. Ignore them and don't engage.

That is clearly nasty and designed to be hurtful, and isn't advising people to ignore others considered bullying? I would say so - when I was at school it was strictly discouraged on those grounds, and things were a lot less enlightened than today.

Do you not post your views? Most of us do, even when the questions get difficult - as I keep saying, that's the point of discussion boards. Rocking up and saying that you aren't going to answer, and advising others to ignore 'a group of people' runs directly counter to that, and can't possibly be in the spirit of GN, surely?

Rather than sniping, why not say what I haven't got right, and counter it with an idea of your own? It would be more useful if you pointed out flaws in what I am saying about the subject of the discussion, than nitpicking about minor things though - unless of course you want to derail the thread.

Glorianny Mon 25-Jul-22 13:50:48

Should have said continue to post their views and defend each other.

Mollygo Mon 25-Jul-22 13:38:42

Glorianny

I never said the gender critical shut down discussions. I said they manufacture threads so they can continue to post their views and it's not worth engaging. I do wish you could get at least one thing right.

Quoting to make sure I get one thing right.
“*Manufacture threads*” everyone does that.
“*Continue to post their views*” very few threads ever have only one post re their views from either the OP or other contributors-as you evidence by your continued posts.
Not worth engaging and yet . . . you’re still engaging.
I do wish you could get at least one thing right.grin

Glorianny Mon 25-Jul-22 13:23:26

I never said the gender critical shut down discussions. I said they manufacture threads so they can continue to post their views and it's not worth engaging. I do wish you could get at least one thing right.