Is the LP changing its stance on 'gender'?

Well if you are certainly not going to discuss them, there can be No Debate, can there?

This is a perfect example of how it is not 'the gender-critical' who shut down discussions, so please stop making those unfounded allegations.

Doodledog

*This looks a very nice male toilet and I am sure there are some where transwomen would be perfectly safe (especially if it's that empty). I'm equally certain there are others where they would be attacked.*

Ok. In the past you have made the point that the odds on a woman being attacked by a transwoman in a toilet are remote, and that therefore there is no need for women to have safe spaces. You have also made the point that women are as capable as men of being violent (as an argument against keeping prisons single-sex for women's safety). In both cases the argument is that the odds being low is good enough reason for the instances to be ignored, so why, therefore, are you now arguing for transwomen to use female toilets on the grounds that in some cases they might be at risk in a male one?

Don't think I have said any of these things so certainly not going to discuss them with you. As you seem able to manufacture views when you choose, you can manufacture replies for yourself as well. Enjoy!

This looks a very nice male toilet and I am sure there are some where transwomen would be perfectly safe (especially if it's that empty). I'm equally certain there are others where they would be attacked.

Ok. In the past you have made the point that the odds on a woman being attacked by a transwoman in a toilet are remote, and that therefore there is no need for women to have safe spaces. You have also made the point that women are as capable as men of being violent (as an argument against keeping prisons single-sex for women's safety). In both cases the argument is that the odds being low is good enough reason for the instances to be ignored, so why, therefore, are you now arguing for transwomen to use female toilets on the grounds that in some cases they might be at risk in a male one?

Glorianny

^By the way Glorianny you say you speak over a man who interrupts. It's far more likely that when a man speaks over a woman it is he who has interrupted.^
That's true and I meant I speak over a man (or anyone) who interrupts. They will try to shut me up, but as I said I have quite a deep voice and can project when I need to. It is a skill and maybe it should be taught more. It basically means your voice becomes louder, but it isn't shouting. I also believe there is some research that shows deeper voices are listened to more (which was why Thatcher was trained and dropped hers). It takes confidence and a certain disregard of what is considered good manners to do it but it can be done.

That was not the issue in the situation I described. As I said from the start, the transwomen were not 'allowed' to get away with it. My own voice - and that of others in the group can be projected - I have been a lecturer for decades and can be heard easily when I need to be.

It was probably just good manners that stopped us being rude at the start. The group meets because we want to - it's not a work thing - and as with many social 'events', people did not set out to be antagonistic with one another. Also, the fact that it was clear that there were transwomen in the group (who didn't know one another either - it wasn't an invasion) was the elephant in the room. They introduced themselves with female names and had clearly made an effort to look like women, so I, for one, didn't want to appear to be discriminatory or 'unkind', and assume the others felt the same.

It is definitely not my experience that transpeople are 'the most marginalised' - I suppose it depends on the circles you move in, but I have found the reverse to be true. People go out of their way to 'be kind', and I think we were all pretending not to have noticed.

Anyway, this was one anecdotal incident which I am not saying is representative - I was talking about differences in male and female communication patterns (which are well-documented) and was suggesting that regardless of whether people try to present as the other sex these patterns remain fixed, so I doubt that they can be switched on and off if someone presents as a woman on some days and a man on others.

I don't want to divert the conversation further, so I'll say no more on the subject.

FarNorth

I have never insisted that men should have surgery in order to use women's toilets etc.
I am not happy with any men being in places that are intended for females only.

If Shapeshifter, or any other man, looks convincingly like a woman (I've never seen him in real life) then he would be able to fool women who saw him in a toilet or changing room.

Here's a pic of transwoman Fionne Orlander in a men's toilet. At one time Fionne ran a campaign along with another transwoman Miranda Yardley, saying that there is no great danger for transwomen in using men's toilets.

This looks a very nice male toilet and I am sure there are some where transwomen would be perfectly safe (especially if it's that empty). I'm equally certain there are others where they would be attacked.

By the way Glorianny you say you speak over a man who interrupts. It's far more likely that when a man speaks over a woman it is he who has interrupted.
That's true and I meant I speak over a man (or anyone) who interrupts. They will try to shut me up, but as I said I have quite a deep voice and can project when I need to. It is a skill and maybe it should be taught more. It basically means your voice becomes louder, but it isn't shouting. I also believe there is some research that shows deeper voices are listened to more (which was why Thatcher was trained and dropped hers). It takes confidence and a certain disregard of what is considered good manners to do it but it can be done.

With regards to the comments on surgery I dont think surgery makes any difference to what sex you are. We shouldnt have pretended that either.

I will watch it tomorrow- sorry if I have diverted the conversation.

As to what would have happened had we not realised they were male - who knows? It was, as usual, obvious. We tiptoed round it for a while out of politeness (we first met on Zoom) and I think if they had been openly male we would have gone straight for the kill and asked them to refrain. I’m not a shrinking violet when someone is being rude, as you may have noticed, and nor are the other group members, but nobody wanted to hurt the elephants in the room. It was/is (supposedly) a female group, but there are no safety issues and we get along, so nobody has suggested we disband and set up without them. I am in similar groups with mixed sex participants and it doesn’t matter - it’s not a physical activity, but a shared interest in a specific topic.

The video isn't really about different types of behaviour DD, it's about Shapeshifter's realisation that he can continue to present as he likes without claiming to be a woman.

My point in posting it was to ask what anyone thinks is the difference between him (or anyone) saying he's a transwoman or saying he's a man who chooses to present in a 'feminine'way.

Rosie51 Exactly.

So DD if you hadn't known they were male, would anything have been said?

By the way Glorianny you say you speak over a man who interrupts. It's far more likely that when a man speaks over a woman it is he who has interrupted.

I take your point about learned behaviour. I'm just making an observation here.

The difference is FarNorth that Fionne respects women as a sex class, recognises that a transwoman will never be female (despite the surgery Fionne has recently undergone), but most importantly is a thoroughly lovely person who deserves every happiness.

Glorianny

But that is not male behaviour, it's learned behaviour. Mum lets dad speak over her. Like all learned behaviour it can be changed.

Yes, which is what the women in the group did, as I said.

My point is that regardless of how someone tries to 'present', their socialisation, learned behaviour, call it what you will, will out, as it is part of the gendered way many people are raised.

I was responding to FN's post, which I took to be asking about how people shift between 'male' and 'female' presentation on a regular basis (although I haven't yet seen the video), and suggested that in a lot of cases things are too ingrained.

I have never insisted that men should have surgery in order to use women's toilets etc.
I am not happy with any men being in places that are intended for females only.

If Shapeshifter, or any other man, looks convincingly like a woman (I've never seen him in real life) then he would be able to fool women who saw him in a toilet or changing room.

Here's a pic of transwoman Fionne Orlander in a men's toilet. At one time Fionne ran a campaign along with another transwoman Miranda Yardley, saying that there is no great danger for transwomen in using men's toilets.

But that is not male behaviour, it's learned behaviour. Mum lets dad speak over her. Like all learned behaviour it can be changed.

I didn't mean that, but now you mention it, I don't know.

I meant that they were treated as we would treat men who behaved like that - gentle then not so gentle ribbing until we knew them well enough to tell them to STFU, as we would with male friends who mansplained and talked over us. But really I was making the point that their maleness impacted on their communication style - however much they were trying to 'present as' female.

Which probably doesn't address the content of the video - sorry.

It seems very strange to me to claim you support trans people, but insist that men transitioning must have surgery to use women's loos etc then post about someone who regrets surgery. If shapeshifter hadn't had surgery would you have been happy for him to use women's toilets? Looking as he does using mens might be dangerous.

Doodledog do you mean that the transwomen came across as vociferous women but they had this drawn to their attention as being too 'manly'?
And that a woman like Glorianny would have no comment made to her?

I wasn't really commenting about surgery Glorianny although Shapeshifter talks about it a fair bit.
His main point, I think, is that he should have used clothes, hair, make-up as he preferred without claiming to be a woman. That is what he is doing now.

I don't understand what difference there is between a man who does that and a man who claims to be a woman.

That's not the point, though. My point was that the transwomen all behave like many men do - not whether they get away with it.

In fact I pointed out that they don't - but only because we gel as a group well enough to deal with it. It's the attempted behaviour that relates to FN's post about how people behave when 'presenting' as male or female.

I'm afraid I communicate like men I have quite a deep voice which I am very good at projecting. If men try to interrupt whilst I'm speaking I talk over them. Stopping speaking is learned behaviour which women can challenge.
As for the surgery discussion. It is really little to do with trans issues there are all sorts of people who undergo plastic surgery time after time and are never happy with the results. It is the result of a culture which regards medical care as a commodity to be bought and sold.

Again, I'll have to watch it tomorrow, or when Mr Dog goes to bed - we are in a lodge with one living room, and he's watching the TV.

But without seeing it, it's difficult to be sure, but I don't think that my 'gender' is an important part of me at all. As I've said on this thread, there are aspects of my behaviour and 'presentation' that are recognisably female, and others that aren't. I am wearing a shapeless linen dress today because it's hot. If I lopped the bottom off it, and wore it as a top it would be unisex I think. Yesterday I wore jeans and a shirt, as it was cooler. My hair isn't styled, although it has been on and off over the years. Mr D and I share housework and cooking, and although there are some things that I do and others that he does that just suits us. If I had a female partner or he a male one they wouldn't be seen as divided on gender lines.

Things like getting paid less and the disparity in medical care, having given birth to my children, or having had a much more restricted childhood than he did (my parents weren't progressive!) are not things that transwomen experience, so won't make up their personality as they may have influenced mine.

I don't consciously play the role of a woman, and don't think that Mr D role-plays either - we are just us. I realise that if anyone wanted to score points they could say that this is because we are 'cis'; but whilst it may be true that we behave according to our socialisation I think that so do at least some transpeople. I have known a few transwomen in one area of my life (a fairly niche social/interest thing), and without exception they communicate like men - talking over women, explaining what we already know and taking the lead in conversations. It would be comical if it wasn't so annoying. I can't claim that they are necessarily representative of all transwomen in all situations, but it is true. We know each other well enough now to make a joke of it, and they are starting to catch themselves on and rein it in a bit, but it's clearly what comes naturally (but whether because of nature or nurture, or because of the nature of the reason we meet is a whole other discussion!).

I don't know if that answers your question though.

So, indeed, what is the difference between being identified as a transwoman and being the same person, presenting in the same trans type of ways, and not choosing to identify as a transwoman?

Here is a video (18 mins) of Blaire White (transwoman) interviewing Shapeshifter (detransitioned transwoman).
Shapeshifter is a man who no longer identifies as a transwoman and still presents in a glamorous 'feminine' way that he likes.
He understands, now, that he is still the same person whatever happens.

youtu.be/mRh80xSI8QQ

Mollygo

???

I know. And it's 'the gender critical' who supposedly shut down debate ?.

I apologise to anyone reading this who doesn't post on these threads - this sort of thing is unedifying, I know. But I am sick to the back teeth of being portrayed as someone who doesn't want debate, and who shouts people down. If anyone has stuck with this thread they will see that this is not the case, and that it is not 'the gender critical' who came along to snipe and refuse to take part other than to make accusations, or to attempt to isolate the threads and make them into echo chambers by encouraging others to avoid the them. Quite the reverse.

This is a topic that I find important, and it's depressing when 'discussions' go this way. I am still genuinely interested in people's thoughts about the LP and their position on gender politics (or other related thoughts) if there is anyone still out there?

Stormystar

FarNorth are you saying if there is an essential self beyond sexual/gender identity, then Transition is a defunct unnecessary proposition. As Philip inhabits a reality of fluidity it’s mere mood or temperament that determines the daily performance. The essential self being unalterable.

I was saying that the person is the same regardless of the mood or temperament - in PB's case still a heterosexual male, as he happily says.
I mentioned PB as being a clear illustration of what I believe applies to all trans identified males - they remain males no matter what changes they make, or don't make, to how they look and behave.

Just as those who identify as animals still remain human no matter what changes......etc.

So transition should be a defunct unnecessary proposition and society should get used to people presenting in ways that suit them, instead of contorting itself to pretend that people can change sex.

Of course Safety and fairness writ large Must be the prime political and legal considerations. Glorrianny I had hoped for a discussion on my request for illumination Id like clarity of thought logic to engender within me greater awareness and understanding - not adversarially.