Is the LP changing its stance on 'gender'?

Chewbacca I suggest certainly a possibility but not necessarily probable.

???

Glorianny

DaisyAnne

I did read the thread title FarNorth. No need to try and be clever. What I said is that I must read the full OP as the titles are sometimes misleading - as I found this one. This happens from time to times. I am sure I am not the only one to have found some groups are basically "closed" groups.

We live and learn each time and then avoid such groups as I will next time this group posts. However, it is easy to avoid the "Estrangement" threads as they have a Forum Topic heading. This one doesn't. I have no idea what you would call it but just think - if I could avoid these posts we would both be happy

DaisyAnne I think the advice is avoid any thread with the word gender in the title. There is a group on GN determined to keep posting their views over and over again. Like the child that screams to have its own way, they yell "Agree with me"at the top of their voice and pretend they want to discuss when all they really want is to confirm each others prejudices. Ignore them and don't engage.

I think you're right Glorianny. I shall watch out for it as a no-no.

Agreed, Stormystar. The same is true of Eddie Izzard and Courtney Act, both of whom 'are' male on some days and female on others.

Whilst I can't see the harm in that on a day to day level, I don't think that relying on what is 'in their heads' on a given day is reason enough for them to be able to come and go in fundamental ways, such as 'competing' in sport or entering enclosed spaces where there are vulnerable women.

Whilst Phillip is inhabiting his reality of fluidity that determines his daily performance is it possible that he could respect the need for safe spaces for women at all?

FarNorth are you saying if there is an essential self beyond sexual/gender identity, then Transition is a defunct unnecessary proposition. As Philip inhabits a reality of fluidity it’s mere mood or temperament that determines the daily performance. The essential self being unalterable.

It would be interesting to know what is the difference between being identified as a transwoman and being the same person, presenting in the same ways, and not choosing to identify as a transwoman.

I don't know if Philip Bunce is helpful to consideration of this, or not.
Clearly he has different body language, depending on which 'identity' he is in. Maybe he has different vocal language too or/and a different voice.
Nevertheless, he is the same person and everyone who knows him is aware of that.

Brilliant post @ 18.27 Stormystar.

A valid question, Stormystar. It baffles me, too - particularly when those who believe it can happen also claim that they wish to broaden the scope of gender expectations and reduce stereotypes.

This is one of the main problems I have with understanding their point of view. Gender stereotypes have been slowly but surely breaking down for the last few decades, which is, IMO all to the good and liberating for all concerned. There is no reason why someone should have to (or feel that they need to) 'transition' to the opposite sex in order to adopt new gender roles - they can just adopt them.

If trans people are really the most marginalised group in society, there is all the more reason for 'transitioning' to be unnecessary, and if a very high percentage of transwomen are sexually intact males who can't define a woman, then it makes no sense at all - as you say, what are they hoping to achieve by becoming marginalised?

I have asked for explanations, but have met with naked hostility, personal abuse and more. It is, apparently, an extremist view, and asking questions is 'cross-questioning'. I hope you have more success.

If, as the transgender ideology insists there is nothing to definitively pronounce what constitutes a Man or a Woman, then there can be no foundational basis to trans From or To. Not mentally emotionally psychologically or biologically. There is no North Star, no map of meaning. This is the conundrum I can’t get my head around. How can you trans into something that is a chimera. Illumination anyone?

Neither have I. Even Google didn’t help with that one.

What is TaF?
I've not come across that before.

DaisyAnne I think the advice is avoid any thread with the word gender in the title. * There is a group on GN determined to keep posting their views over and over again. Like the child that screams to have its own way, they yell "Agree with me"at the top of their voice and pretend they want to discuss when all they really want is to confirm each others prejudices. Ignore them and don't engage.
Do take note DaisyAnne, although the above mentioned TaF group of posters who post their views over and over again refuse to accept that the more reasonable posters support people’s right to choose their gender, merely reiterating that the majority of those being transgender do not wish any harm or upset to women
This reasonable group are unlike the TaF group who constantly post their views, who do not deny trans the right to use actions which could cause such harm or distress to females.
Unless you support the TaF group, and wish to scream and yell to get your own way, the advice not to engage is well given.

DaisyAnne

I did read the thread title FarNorth. No need to try and be clever. What I said is that I must read the full OP as the titles are sometimes misleading - as I found this one. This happens from time to times. I am sure I am not the only one to have found some groups are basically "closed" groups.

We live and learn each time and then avoid such groups as I will next time this group posts. However, it is easy to avoid the "Estrangement" threads as they have a Forum Topic heading. This one doesn't. I have no idea what you would call it but just think - if I could avoid these posts we would both be happy

DaisyAnne I think the advice is avoid any thread with the word gender in the title. There is a group on GN determined to keep posting their views over and over again. Like the child that screams to have its own way, they yell "Agree with me"at the top of their voice and pretend they want to discuss when all they really want is to confirm each others prejudices. Ignore them and don't engage.

FarNorth

No need to avoid anything. If you have an opinion, please express it - I don't think you've done so yet, other than to tell others how boring you find us and that people on both 'sides' of the debate are extremists, thus painting yourself as the only one who is able to moderate her views? Self-praise is no recommendation, as my mother used to say. These threads would be more interesting all round if those with other opinions joined in, and said more than 'you are all meanies and are picking on me'.

If they are echo chambers it is only because it is rare for someone from who disagrees to post and engage in a debate - ie answer questions that are put to them and go beyond 'TWAW' in their replies.

People coming onto threads simply to police what others post is tedious though.

The title includes 'gender'. That should have been enough of a clue.

It's such fun getting involved in these little diversions, tho, when someone from your group pops into a thread.

The forum topic is "News & politics" and is visible above the title. It isn't any more specific than that, as the hot news topics change so often that GNHQ would have to keep adding new topics - and as it takes them months (years?) to add any to the list, they would always be out of date.

I did read the thread title FarNorth. No need to try and be clever. What I said is that I must read the full OP as the titles are sometimes misleading - as I found this one. This happens from time to times. I am sure I am not the only one to have found some groups are basically "closed" groups.

We live and learn each time and then avoid such groups as I will next time this group posts. However, it is easy to avoid the "Estrangement" threads as they have a Forum Topic heading. This one doesn't. I have no idea what you would call it but just think - if I could avoid these posts we would both be happy

Yes DaisyAnne reading the thread title and the OP is always a good way to start.
I recommend it.

That's annoying for you, because now it will keep coming up on your "I'm on" threads every time someone posts. It is frustrating.

I don't, thank you I now just want to avoid these threads. I shall just have to check the OP more carefully won't I. You're not alone. I once got on an Estrangement thread by accident too, but now I can look out for the Forum Topic and avoid them.

It definitely was about the Labour Party and its stance on gender, as clearly stated in the title.
If you want to get it back on track, to that subject, please do.

That was not what I said. This thread has degraded (my opinion) to the standard "I'm right, they're wrong" spat.

I'm not saying that's not what you should be talking about. However, clear titles do help. These thread are a "no go area" for anyone with an alternative opinion so it's easier to avoid them than be faced by all the "you can't say that" comments.

Perhaps you could have your own Forum Topic.

Well if you'd clicked on the James Kirkup link in the opening post, you'd have seen that it was very much connected to the Labour Party's stance on trans issues. Maybe have a look?