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So the Final 2 - Liz and Rishi

(668 Posts)
Bea65 Wed 20-Jul-22 16:01:44

Well am not surprised.. Are you? Feel dismayed by the Cons and the awful skullduggery that has gone on..need a glass or 2..hmm

Prentice Wed 27-Jul-22 09:41:45

Whoever wins this leadership contest will have an awful two years.It’s just the times we are living through.
It seems obvious that Labour will win the next election, people will think it’s time for a change anyway.Has any political party here won four terms?
Those who denigrate Sir Keir should look hard at themselves, do they want Labour back in power ? Am talking of Labour voters.
As for future televised debates, allow all to sit down.

Dickens Wed 27-Jul-22 09:50:48

It is a very important ideology for Tories that however humble one’s background, anyone can succeed with hard work and determination. Unfortunate for several years this has no longer been the case and is indeed a modern myth.

I believe it is a myth, though the idea of "success" in Tory-terms can be debated.

If you are a hard-working individual attaining a comfortable life, you will be considered successful. Unless of course your ideology goes against the grain of free-market, libertarian Capitalism. But God help you if you are from a poor working class background with left-leaning principles... you'll then become a Champagne Socialist. Especially if you accept an invitation to the Opera...

"If we want to change that status quo, we might have to work outside of those rules because the legal pathways available to us have been structured precisely to make sure we don't make any substantial change." (Tim DeChristopher)

MaizieD Wed 27-Jul-22 10:07:01

If you are a hard-working individual attaining a comfortable life, you will be considered successful. Unless of course your ideology goes against the grain of free-market, libertarian Capitalism. But God help you if you are from a poor working class background with left-leaning principles... you'll then become a Champagne Socialist. Especially if you accept an invitation to the Opera...

Precisely. Good analysis, Dickens.

The tory myth rather breaks down when it comes to individuals who work very hard indeed but still can't earn enough to keep themselves and their families in any comfort. I have always seen the LP as wanting a decent life for everyone, regardless of whether or not they achieve this elusive, poorly defined 'success'. I think it still does, regardless of what those on 'the left' might say.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 27-Jul-22 10:12:18

Just listening to James O’Brian.

He reminded the listener of the dismal text written by amongst others Truss and Patel which stated the British worker are the laziest shirkers in the entire world and should not be protected by law.

That is why I vote labour - I can never identify with people like that.

Doodledog Wed 27-Jul-22 10:28:42

Yes, she tried to distance herself from that, but it is a disgraceful attitude to have towards the people she wants to lead.

Quite apart from being antagonistic, it suggests that 'workers' are a class apart (although from what is not really clear), and that they/we should work harder than we are doing already. Given the number of people who work long hours and still rely on food banks, that is several steps beyond insulting.

For a potential PM to say that any group in society should not be protected by law should, IMP, preclude them from standing. That the law should apply to all citizens seems a tricky concept for many Tory politicians to grasp, but removing protection from one group is even worse than removing a need to comply from another.

Doodledog Wed 27-Jul-22 10:29:16

IMO, not IMP!

Whitewavemark2 Wed 27-Jul-22 11:20:33

They never change however it is worded

Doodledog Wed 27-Jul-22 11:35:54

Comments like this (with Truss's and Churchill's) are so dehumanising. How can people support this way of thinking, or the policies that the attitude underpins? To wilfully vote for someone who would remove the protection of law from most of the country (depending on her definition of 'workers', which is interesting in itself) is something I just can't imagine considering.

Doodledog Wed 27-Jul-22 11:36:30

both, not 'with'. Where does autocorrect get its ideas from? ?

MaizieD Wed 27-Jul-22 11:45:16

Private Eye's latest cover just about sums up the leadership debates

RichmondPark1 Wed 27-Jul-22 12:06:19

Westminster Voting Intention (Red Wall):

LAB: 45% (-1)
CON: 34% (+2)
LDM: 10% (=)
GRN: 5% (+1)
REF: 3% (-4)

Via @RedfieldWilton
, On 25-26 July,
Changes w/ 11 July.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 27-Jul-22 12:56:53

Sunak

Charter City - run by a right wing institute. So have complete governance over the geographical area.

No labour regs. No planning regs.

Basically will take large company’s out of government control..

Sunak is apparently being being guided by his FiL

Sunak is very right wing.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 27-Jul-22 12:58:08

That should reference Rory Stuart and AC podcast.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 27-Jul-22 13:02:30

Companies.

MayBee70 Wed 27-Jul-22 13:02:49

DiamondLily

There was a piece in one of the papers, last week, by an experienced political commentator who said that both Starmer and Johnson want Truss to win.

They both think that Truss will implode within a year, at which point there would have to be a GE, and if the Tories fail, then there would have to be a leadership challenge - Tory leaders usually go, after any election defeat.?

And Johnson believes he will be back.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 27-Jul-22 13:31:21

Truss on Johnson

Truss says she doesn’t think Johnson deserved to be kicked out by colleagues. “He made mistakes but I didn’t think the mistakes he made were sufficient that the Conservative Party should have rejected him”

This sort of mistake?

Yvette Cooper
@YvetteCooperMP

“As far as I am aware, no Government business was discussed.”

As far as I am aware.

Boris Johnson’s account today of meeting Alexander Lebedev.

Why is he not sure?

He was Foreign Secretary. He met an KGB agent during the Skripal crisis.

“Johnson was observed at Perugia airport after meeting KGB Alexander Lebedev at his palace party dishevelled and unable to walk in a straight line.”

I have absolutely no doubt that the entire event was recorded by the KGB. Neither do I have any doubt that there were drugs and alcohol in use.
Johnson arrived with NATO documents and his mobile

Let that sink in.

Skye17 Wed 27-Jul-22 13:35:10

Whitewavemark2

They never change however it is worded

[Meme: ‘If the Welsh are striking over hunger, we must fill their bellies with lead’]

When I Googled this quote to check it, I found no evidence that Churchill said this, and several claims that it is a fake quote. I also found this article from a Welsh newspaper about the sale of a 1910 memo by Churchill about the Tonypandy rioters.

‘in response to suggestions he was ready to let troops open fire… Churchill wrote: “My dear Gardiner,/ Give no credence to such rubbish. I do not anticipate any shooting and have taken some responsibility to that end’.
www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/churchill-memo-tonypandy-riots-up-6677339

The BBC also reported the memo sale.
Winston Churchill's Tonypandy riots memo up for auction www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-26601738

Whitewavemark2 Wed 27-Jul-22 14:04:44

Interesting, it is a mute point I think. But the fact that he deployed the military …….

If guns weren’t intended for use why not use the police?

Churchill was also known to lie.

However

But a year later soldiers were again called in, this time to strike-related riots in Liverpool. On this occasion the soldiers did fire their weapons and two people were killed.

In 1919, under Churchill, by now Secretary of State for Air and War, tanks and an estimated 10,000 troops were deployed to Glasgow during a period of widespread strikes and civil unrest

Whitewavemark2 Wed 27-Jul-22 14:05:21

Ref BBC

I keep forgetting!

Dickens Wed 27-Jul-22 16:45:03

MaizieD

The tory myth rather breaks down when it comes to individuals who work very hard indeed but still can't earn enough to keep themselves and their families in any comfort. I have always seen the LP as wanting a decent life for everyone, regardless of whether or not they achieve this elusive, poorly defined 'success'. I think it still does, regardless of what those on 'the left' might say.

I was going to say similar. Tories know full well that there are some occupations wherein no matter how hard you work you will not achieve that mythical 'success'. They are often the 'grunt' jobs that hold the community and infrastructure together, and frequently poorly paid.

I remember a media article regarding the annual influx (pre-pandemic) of customised 'super cars' belonging to wealthy Arab 'playboys' and others in central and west London. A reader commented on their wealth - noting that the cost of flying over these cars was in excess of £20,000 - only to be told that his were the "politics of envy" and that he too could achieve success if he were prepared to "work hard". Apart from the obvious fact that "playboys" by definition don't do hard work, no amount of it is going to propel the average worker into the Bulgari Hotel in Knightsbridge. An extreme example - but it demonstrates the facetious drivel that some on the Right will employ.

Whitewavemark2

He reminded the listener of the dismal text written by amongst others Truss and Patel which stated the British worker are the laziest shirkers in the entire world and should not be protected by law.

Once they enter the workplace, the British are among the worst idlers in the world. Are working-class Tory voters even aware of "Britannia Unchained" - have they read it?. The contempt for the class Truss is attempting to woo makes her faux concern even more abhorrent.

Doodledog

Yes, she tried to distance herself from that, but it is a disgraceful attitude to have towards the people she wants to lead.

Boris Johnson also had something to say about the "lazy, feckless, likely to be drunk, 'blue-collar' workers", noting that their white-collar counterparts were "little better"... 'and it never did 'im any 'arm'!

In fact, he's seen by many now as a victim who's been bullied out of office by a cabal of ungrateful MPs. Some feel so strongly about his demise, they now want him to be included on the ballot paper for the forthcoming vote on the future PM. Poor 'Boris', he was "doing his best"! His popular voter-appeal and 80 seat majority recovery programme is aimed at keeping the party afloat. As one admitted, that without Johnson, 'we might end up with Starmer in Number 10'

So in the end, it's not about the country, not about the huge problems in the NHS and social care, inflation, cost of living crises, ridiculously high energy prices... it's about keeping the party in power.

Meanwhile, the two lightweight hopefuls will slug it out. The big question being, tax-cuts now, or tax-cuts later. And the mounting crises will remain.

And for those of us who want a more fair, more equitable society, who don't want the extremes of political ideology, right or left, nor the divisions in society they encourage; nor the continuation of the blustering anti-EU rhetoric which, ultimately, harms us as a nation; nor further alignment with the economic and (dare I say) cultural values, of the USA... well, we might just have to sit back and accept that - in our lifetime - nothing will change.

Personally, I shall seek refuge in continuing to take part in events that bring together our local small town community and outlying villages; supporting local enterprise, donating to charities and movements that are developing recreational activities for the young and restoring some of the facilities for the elderly. I shall shop locally where possible to keep the town alive ("use it or lose it" is the motto of the town's quarterly advertising publication)... because it is a microcosm of what I believe society should / could be.

"When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies?... Too much sanity may be madness, and maddest of all is to see life as it is and not as it should be." (Miguel de Cervantes (1547-1616).

MayBee70 Wed 27-Jul-22 16:52:26

Whitewavemark2

Truss on Johnson

Truss says she doesn’t think Johnson deserved to be kicked out by colleagues. “He made mistakes but I didn’t think the mistakes he made were sufficient that the Conservative Party should have rejected him”

This sort of mistake?

Yvette Cooper
@YvetteCooperMP

“As far as I am aware, no Government business was discussed.”

As far as I am aware.

Boris Johnson’s account today of meeting Alexander Lebedev.

Why is he not sure?

He was Foreign Secretary. He met an KGB agent during the Skripal crisis.

“Johnson was observed at Perugia airport after meeting KGB Alexander Lebedev at his palace party dishevelled and unable to walk in a straight line.”

I have absolutely no doubt that the entire event was recorded by the KGB. Neither do I have any doubt that there were drugs and alcohol in use.
Johnson arrived with NATO documents and his mobile

Let that sink in.

For someone who speaks in a flippant way most of the time he’s very careful with his words when answering accusations like this. I find Johnson as frightening as Trump.

Bea65 Wed 27-Jul-22 16:58:43

Dickens you must have been a suffragette in another life..think we have a few suffragettes on GNgrin- nicely written and compelling ..but is it Liz or Rishi ?

MaizieD Wed 27-Jul-22 17:06:22

Bea65

Dickens you must have been a suffragette in another life..think we have a few suffragettes on GNgrin- nicely written and compelling ..but is it Liz or Rishi ?

I hope it's Liz because I think she'll fall to pieces faster than a piece of wet toilet paper and we could very well have a General Election... grin

Farzanah Wed 27-Jul-22 19:32:25

Has anyone noticed that women’s rights are at risk from Truss in her present job as Minister for Women and Equalities? Apparently Caroline Nokes has written to her to see why commitments to abortion and sexual health rights were removed from the official multi-nation statement on gender equality?

This statement came about after the UK hosted a conference on freedom of religion and belief earlier this month.

I wonder the reason for this deletion and feel very uneasy about womens rights under this government, as so many other rights are being curbed.

Dickens Wed 27-Jul-22 20:38:01

Farzanah

Has anyone noticed that women’s rights are at risk from Truss in her present job as Minister for Women and Equalities? Apparently Caroline Nokes has written to her to see why commitments to abortion and sexual health rights were removed from the official multi-nation statement on gender equality?

This statement came about after the UK hosted a conference on freedom of religion and belief earlier this month.

I wonder the reason for this deletion and feel very uneasy about womens rights under this government, as so many other rights are being curbed.

I share your unease.

We are getting too cosy with the Republican Right in the USA, both economically and culturally, discarding the more liberal European values. I don't doubt for one minute that we are aligning ourselves with the Trumpian Right under this government.