So the Final 2 - Liz and Rishi

I don’t eat duck or bacon and don’t know what that’s got to do with this argument unless we are talking about gammon. Back to Truss who is so wooden and just changes her views to suit her ambitions it makes you dizzy. Her faux pas have already been made into a funny video on Twitter. She’s bound to give a Johnson a peerage.

This

“It's completely alienating, as a citizen in a so-called democracy, to stand by watching for weeks on end, as a tiny group of people decide who will take control of government, the whole rotten process cloaked in media-manufactured legitimacy.”
Michael Dougan.

This is what makes me feel so uncomfortable. It doesn’t feel very democratic to me, and I really don’t think that a prime minister chosen by a miniscule amount if people has any legitimacy whatsoever.

Whitewavemark2

This

“It's completely alienating, as a citizen in a so-called democracy, to stand by watching for weeks on end, as a tiny group of people decide who will take control of government, the whole rotten process cloaked in media-manufactured legitimacy.”
Michael Dougan.

This is what makes me feel so uncomfortable. It doesn’t feel very democratic to me, and I really don’t think that a prime minister chosen by a miniscule amount if people has any legitimacy whatsoever.

Did you feel the same when Tony Blair handed over to Gordon Brown?

The electorate didn’t get a say then either.

Of course!

Quoting another instance of illegitimacy doesn’t make it any better.

The Tories do seem to make it a habit though.

MayBee70

Out of interest, how many people actually look up an MP’s voting record?

I looked up all the contenders originally. None of them had a voting record that impressed me, the least of all Tom Tugendhat.
However, I was unable to work out which were free votes in acccordance with conscience and beliefs, and which were party lines that had had to be obeyed.

GrannyRose15

Is there anyone on here prepared to give a new prime minister a chance?

I'd be prepared to give Rishi Sunak a chance. At least he had the good taste to resign and thereby, it is alleged, trigger the prime minister's resignation.

Liz Truss seems to me like Johnson in a dress, and we'll just get more of the same old flannel.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2

This

“It's completely alienating, as a citizen in a so-called democracy, to stand by watching for weeks on end, as a tiny group of people decide who will take control of government, the whole rotten process cloaked in media-manufactured legitimacy.”
Michael Dougan.

This is what makes me feel so uncomfortable. It doesn’t feel very democratic to me, and I really don’t think that a prime minister chosen by a miniscule amount if people has any legitimacy whatsoever.

Did you feel the same when Tony Blair handed over to Gordon Brown?

The electorate didn’t get a say then either.

I don’t have an issue with the MPs and party members electing a prime minister from within their ranks, I can’t see how the whole electorate could have a say in that process.
I think what’s different about this leadership election is that the new leader is usually the choice of a very high percentage of MPs and members. With Gordon Brown he was a landslide choice for example. This time Liz Truss was a poor third initially with the MPs, who know the candidates and their capabilities best. I’ve got no doubt that Rishi Sunak is eminently more capable to do the job than she is, so this feels like a purely ideological election, she will be a puppet PM.

I can't help thinking that when an MP is popular with the party membership but unpopular with constituency MPs, there's a big problem if they become leader/PM. MPs know far more about their fellow MPs, the membership only knows what they are told by the media. I am very concerned about Truss potentially becoming PM, it is not the time to have tax cuts.

Which of course happened when members chose Mr Corbyn
Foxie48 when MP’s knew what he was like.
But this is how they are chosen and is more democratic.
If we do not want them we can vote them out at the next election.
So really yes this is the democratic option.

We now have chaos at Dover, nearly 7 million people waiting more than a year for surgery, a £42 billion pound bill for Brexit, high inflation, soaring energy costs and war in Ukraine.

Nobody can think that either of these candidates are the right people to lead us through this can they?

We are now in a situation where there are two candidates with opposing views over tax and other serious issues.

Whoever gets in as PM will have 2 years to do their worse.

Only 0.001% of the population will have voted for this PM.

It is not democracy.

As a total outsider I think they both look very dodgy indeed. Can’t they get anyone better than those two ?

Whitewavemark2

We are now in a situation where there are two candidates with opposing views over tax and other serious issues.

Whoever gets in as PM will have 2 years to do their worse.

Only 0.001% of the population will have voted for this PM.

It is not democracy.

It is British democracy though *Whitewavemark, isn’t it? We elect a party, entrust them to elect a leader, and to carry out their manifesto. Even if we had proportional representation, the horse dealing between the parties, and the election of a leader would be the same. I understand what you’re saying, but we do have to suck it up unless there’s a revolution to overthrow this government. How do you see an alternative method of appointing a PM working?

Why when it's so important that we have a PM is it not standard practice to have a second in command who is appointed carefully and thoughtfully during normal times rather than in a rush when a PM dies/leaves?. When the PM leaves this person steps seamlessly into place and the country is never without a leader.

nanna8

As a total outsider I think they both look very dodgy indeed. Can’t they get anyone better than those two ?

That's what my Australian relatives said about the choice there ?

Casdon

Whitewavemark2

We are now in a situation where there are two candidates with opposing views over tax and other serious issues.

Whoever gets in as PM will have 2 years to do their worse.

Only 0.001% of the population will have voted for this PM.

It is not democracy.

It is British democracy though *Whitewavemark, isn’t it? We elect a party, entrust them to elect a leader, and to carry out their manifesto. Even if we had proportional representation, the horse dealing between the parties, and the election of a leader would be the same. I understand what you’re saying, but we do have to suck it up unless there’s a revolution to overthrow this government. How do you see an alternative method of appointing a PM working?

Yes I see your point. But it honestly doesn’t sit well with me.

I shall give it further thought.

RichmondPark1

Why when it's so important that we have a PM is it not standard practice to have a second in command who is appointed carefully and thoughtfully during normal times rather than in a rush when a PM dies/leaves?. When the PM leaves this person steps seamlessly into place and the country is never without a leader.

That’s a thought

RichmondPark1

Why when it's so important that we have a PM is it not standard practice to have a second in command who is appointed carefully and thoughtfully during normal times rather than in a rush when a PM dies/leaves?. When the PM leaves this person steps seamlessly into place and the country is never without a leader.

We do and I think Johnson should have gone immediately and his Deputy should have taken over pro tem.

Callistemon21

RichmondPark1

Why when it's so important that we have a PM is it not standard practice to have a second in command who is appointed carefully and thoughtfully during normal times rather than in a rush when a PM dies/leaves?. When the PM leaves this person steps seamlessly into place and the country is never without a leader.

We do and I think Johnson should have gone immediately and his Deputy should have taken over pro tem.

They are not electing a Prime Minister per se, they are electing a new Tory Party leader who will, de facto, become Prime Minister as leader of the party in office.

It does all feel undemocratic - we finish up with another dodgy leader and no say in it.

Liz Truss is the sort of candidate who, as with Johnson, I am thinking surely to goodness no-one in their right mind could consider her as a PM.

Sunak at least has a bit of presence, even though he is a Tory.

What a mess this all is - we are about to get another duff PM.

Whoever gets in as PM will have 2 years to do their worse.
Is this what other parties and their supporters are maybe worried about? That, for example, Liz Truss will empty the coffers and leave the country in a mess for the next incumbents? I think that is a probable scenario, but at least then things can only get better.

If the polls are to believed it will be Truss by a mile ?

Where is their sense?

It is the conservative government, over all these years, that has brought the dire situation on us. I wouldn't trust Truss - she is the person who has sold farmers down the line bringing in cheap meat etc from abroad. She will promise anything but achieve nothing for us if she is elected. Depressing.

Will whoever wins, Truss or Sunak, carry out the manifesto on which the party was elected at the last election?

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2

This

“It's completely alienating, as a citizen in a so-called democracy, to stand by watching for weeks on end, as a tiny group of people decide who will take control of government, the whole rotten process cloaked in media-manufactured legitimacy.”
Michael Dougan.

This is what makes me feel so uncomfortable. It doesn’t feel very democratic to me, and I really don’t think that a prime minister chosen by a miniscule amount if people has any legitimacy whatsoever.

Did you feel the same when Tony Blair handed over to Gordon Brown?

The electorate didn’t get a say then either.

Yes I did feel the same. And the Tories said it was wrong at the time - did they make a mistake and it's actually right?