Labour sacks shadow transport minister who backed strikes.

The infighting is like a skirmish over a scrappy bit of land. One day the real enemy will appear and shoot the lot of them. Absolutely nothing will have been achieved, and the U.K. will be done for.

Iam64 I didn’t vote for Mr.Blair however I do recognise his achievements.

The U.K. needs strong opposition to hold the Governing Party to account. I wish the infighting in the Labour Party would stop.

Thanks for your post Prentice. I still admire the Blair government, remember clearly my work in areas of high deprivation becoming less depressing as new community schools which were also libraries, family centres, had social workers, midwives, health visitors all available under one roof to support families.
Iraq was a disaster. I was one of the many marching - not in my name. It’s one of those occasions when being right achieves nothing. Much like being right that a Johnson government would benefit the rich but not the rest
I’m in a red wall area. Many people voted Tory to stop Corbyn. Same in the nearby area with a large Jewish community, they voted anything to keep Corbyn out of Downing Street
Let’s hope Starmer can keep the rolling ship steady

Glorianny

Casdon

Glorianny

So instead of explaining why he is honest and trustworthy you tell me he really isn't but that's OK because he might win an election. That explains a lot.
Personally I would like to see someone who really works to unite the LP then there might be a chance of winning an election. Anyone asked the Red Wall what they think of Starmer?
Oh and a donkey could win over any electorate subjected to the Tories leadership battle.

I didn’t say that. He’s not dishonest, he hasn’t lied, he has compromised, but your interpretation is purist not pragmatic. The majority of people are able to see why he has had to make compromises. I’m am fed up with the obsession with the man rather than the way forward. He is the butt of your angst, but nobody at all could do the job you’re wanting them to do, it’s impossible. For that reason the truth is that nobody will unite the Labour Party. Answer me on Wales please.

Don't know much about Wales so I'm sorry why would I comment? I don't live there or anywhere near there. Is it polite to demand answers?
I'm quite interested in Scotland if you have a question about that.

As a Labour supporter I’m very surprised indeed that you know nothing about the success of the Labour Party, in Wales, and what they have done since they were the majority party when the Welsh Assembly was formed in 1999, to stay in power against the UK trends, that’s why I asked you.

There have been four leaders in Wales, lots of Labour leaders, several Labour PMs since then. Mark Drakeford the current leader is the most un charismatic leader you could meet - but he is a pragmatist. His personal leanings are more left wing than Keir Starmer, but he knows that he has to get consensus, he has to work with Plaid, and the Lib Dems. We have some seats appointed by proportional representation, which has its pros and cons. The point I keep making which is being ignored, is that despite all the constraints, Labour policies are being implemented in Wales. All the fears of the left are unrealised.

Drakeford and Starmer have a healthy respect for each other, they don’t agree on everything - but they are cut from the same cloth, they both know there are many ways to achieve your objectives and that flexibility, listening to the electorate rather than the party and being prepared to compromise to reach your long term goal in the end is the only way forward.

GrannyGravy13

DaisyAnne

Just a thought, Prentice and GrannyGravy. Would you say those who put and kept the German government in power from 1933 - 1945 bore no responsibility? Obviously it varies. Those, like GG13 relatives who left the party, mitigated their responsibility. Those who knew exactly what was going on were most responsible - as would be the current members of our government.

There is a moral burden on citizens if you wish to continue democracy.

Going by your logic, I and many thousands of mothers/fathers/wives/husbands should blame the electorate who voted in Tony Blair, who subsequently sent our Armed Forces into an illegal war in Iraq, many never to return, many returned injured both mentally and physically.

Fortunately I am intelligent enough to realise that any blame is fairly on Mr.Blair.

The same applies to all those who put their X’s on a ballot paper, after that the decisions are made by politicians, they are the ones who should be held accountable…

I agree with GrannyGravy13 on this point about the voting public DaisyAnne
We cannot know what a PM will do, or the government when putting our X on the ballot paper.
Many voted to keep Mr Corbyn out of Number10, many Labour voters did that actually.
Others saw Mr Johnson as perhaps a bit of a joker, but thought he would get things done.Most of the voting public do not study the minutiae of politics or politicians, either through lack of time or lack of interest.They make the best judgement they can near the time of a general election.
As a Labour voter I was impressed by some of the things that Mr Blair got done but would not have voted for him had I known about the war in Iraq.That’s the point, we do not know in advance, and I feel repugnance for this blaming of voters.

I actually came on this morning to answer the OP.

Labour sacks shadow transport minister who backed strikes.

Starmer sacked someone for giving unagreed interviews, as I understand it. So the title was incorrect.

However, what would happen, do you think, if Starmer and the Labour Party backed the strike?

GrannyGravy13

DaisyAnne

Just a thought, Prentice and GrannyGravy. Would you say those who put and kept the German government in power from 1933 - 1945 bore no responsibility? Obviously it varies. Those, like GG13 relatives who left the party, mitigated their responsibility. Those who knew exactly what was going on were most responsible - as would be the current members of our government.

There is a moral burden on citizens if you wish to continue democracy.

Going by your logic, I and many thousands of mothers/fathers/wives/husbands should blame the electorate who voted in Tony Blair, who subsequently sent our Armed Forces into an illegal war in Iraq, many never to return, many returned injured both mentally and physically.

Fortunately I am intelligent enough to realise that any blame is fairly on Mr.Blair.

The same applies to all those who put their X’s on a ballot paper, after that the decisions are made by politicians, they are the ones who should be held accountable…

I don't think Tony Blair stood up and said he would send the armed forces into Iraq before we all voted - did he? If he did, and we knew it was illegal then yes, those who voted for him become complicit. Many who voted him in stood up for their principles and showed how they felt about his choice in this instance.

We did know what this government stood for and the character of the clown leading it. We knew how incompetent he was too. Voting for that was voting with that knowledge therefore those voters are partly complicit.

DaisyAnne

Just a thought, Prentice and GrannyGravy. Would you say those who put and kept the German government in power from 1933 - 1945 bore no responsibility? Obviously it varies. Those, like GG13 relatives who left the party, mitigated their responsibility. Those who knew exactly what was going on were most responsible - as would be the current members of our government.

There is a moral burden on citizens if you wish to continue democracy.

Going by your logic, I and many thousands of mothers/fathers/wives/husbands should blame the electorate who voted in Tony Blair, who subsequently sent our Armed Forces into an illegal war in Iraq, many never to return, many returned injured both mentally and physically.

Fortunately I am intelligent enough to realise that any blame is fairly on Mr.Blair.

The same applies to all those who put their X’s on a ballot paper, after that the decisions are made by politicians, they are the ones who should be held accountable…

Starmer is not your bread and circuses politician; some find that a point to attack. I expect it is both a plus and a drawback. Those who know little about the execution of policy do seem to want an entertainer rather than someone who can run an effective government along the known principles of the party in power. Simple promises are for two year olds so I imagine he would rather not make them. As some of our citizens behave like two year olds so he may have to from time to time.

What businesses and most sane people want to know is "will his government work democratically" and "is his government capable of carrying out the effective management of the country". Both these questions have come to the fore because of lack of belief in democracy shown by the current government, and their totally ineffectual management. It is the first time in my life-time of voting I have had to assume that I need to ask the first question, so far down has this government taken us.

The extreme level of capitalism the current government have pushed on us without anyone's actual vote is not democracy. The level of socialism those on the far-left would have us follow is not democracy. Democracy and the success of the West has come about through balance. It seems to me that Starmer recognises this fact.

The answer I will give about Wales is that Mark Drakeford is more left wing than Keir Starmer. He also appears more likeable and less controlling. I have said before I would prefer him to lead the English Labour party.

Casdon

Glorianny

So instead of explaining why he is honest and trustworthy you tell me he really isn't but that's OK because he might win an election. That explains a lot.
Personally I would like to see someone who really works to unite the LP then there might be a chance of winning an election. Anyone asked the Red Wall what they think of Starmer?
Oh and a donkey could win over any electorate subjected to the Tories leadership battle.

I didn’t say that. He’s not dishonest, he hasn’t lied, he has compromised, but your interpretation is purist not pragmatic. The majority of people are able to see why he has had to make compromises. I’m am fed up with the obsession with the man rather than the way forward. He is the butt of your angst, but nobody at all could do the job you’re wanting them to do, it’s impossible. For that reason the truth is that nobody will unite the Labour Party. Answer me on Wales please.

Don't know much about Wales so I'm sorry why would I comment? I don't live there or anywhere near there. Is it polite to demand answers?
I'm quite interested in Scotland if you have a question about that.

Just a thought, Prentice and GrannyGravy. Would you say those who put and kept the German government in power from 1933 - 1945 bore no responsibility? Obviously it varies. Those, like GG13 relatives who left the party, mitigated their responsibility. Those who knew exactly what was going on were most responsible - as would be the current members of our government.

There is a moral burden on citizens if you wish to continue democracy.

Glorianny

So instead of explaining why he is honest and trustworthy you tell me he really isn't but that's OK because he might win an election. That explains a lot.
Personally I would like to see someone who really works to unite the LP then there might be a chance of winning an election. Anyone asked the Red Wall what they think of Starmer?
Oh and a donkey could win over any electorate subjected to the Tories leadership battle.

I didn’t say that. He’s not dishonest, he hasn’t lied, he has compromised, but your interpretation is purist not pragmatic. The majority of people are able to see why he has had to make compromises. I’m am fed up with the obsession with the man rather than the way forward. He is the butt of your angst, but nobody at all could do the job you’re wanting them to do, it’s impossible. For that reason the truth is that nobody will unite the Labour Party. Answer me on Wales please.

Prentice

GrannyGravy13

DaisyAnne please do not lump all Conservative voters/party members together.

I know many including family members who have cancelled their membership. I know many who cannot vote for the party in the next GE unless there is a change in its direction to the far right

We are not all part of the ERG fan club.

I do so agree with you on this important point GrannyGravy13
I think the current trend to denigrate voters of a political party is a shameful one.Nobody knows what world events will happen and how a government or a PM will act once in power.
All they can go on is which party they think will do best at a general election.
I have friends of all political persuasions and they are all good people.

Prentice I will repeat my reply to GrannyGravy's post. (It looks like you missed it).

If they voted for this government, they lumped themselves together, GrannyGravy, I didn't. They gave power to the ERG. No one else did.

We need to wait and see what happens at the next election. The damage has been done by the voting at the last one.

The way the government behaved was not because of "world events". It was because of the beliefs of a minority of those in power.

Ignorance of the law is no defence for breaking that law. This rule maintains an effective and fair legal system. Can you imagine how the law would work if ignorant opinions were allowed to usurp knowledgeable law? In the same way, if you want effective democracy you cannot accept that voter ignorance is an excuse for undemocratic governance.

So instead of explaining why he is honest and trustworthy you tell me he really isn't but that's OK because he might win an election. That explains a lot.
Personally I would like to see someone who really works to unite the LP then there might be a chance of winning an election. Anyone asked the Red Wall what they think of Starmer?
Oh and a donkey could win over any electorate subjected to the Tories leadership battle.

Glorianny

foxie48

Fewer than a million voters are members of a political party and those that are tend towards more "extreme" views and by that I mean to the right or the left but it's the many millions with a vote who actually decide which party gets to govern. That's why party members having a say in who becomes leader tends to get it wrong. Corbyn was popular with LP members but extremely unpopular with the majority of voters, Boris and Truss are both popular with the Conservative party members but if Truss becomes PM I cannot see her winning a GE, unless of course, a far right government is seen as a safer option than a LP one. The left of the LP party need to get in line or start a new party. KP may not be seen as dynamic but I think the centre see him as honest and safe.

True but unfortunately the number of paying members matters to the functioning of the LP and at the moment it's on the verge of bankruptcy. It would be nice to have one party that wasn't dependant on private companies and rich individuals.
Can the Kier supporters please explain how he can be regarded as honest and principled? He made promises before he was elected leader and has broken them. No matter what he promises in a GE I'd struggle to believe he would really do it.

If he was the best leader the world has ever seen you’d struggle to support him Glorianny, because he is a realist and you are an idealist. Before becoming the leader of a party you don’t fully appreciate the challenges ahead of you, who could possibly do that? He hasn’t changed, his principles are exactly the same, but his knowledge has increased and he’s now understood what needs to be done to make Labour electable again. He’s winning over the electorate at the expense of the left of the party. Most of us would rather see the party in power albeit with some compromises.

I’ve asked twice now, no answer, but I want to know why you think what Labour have achieved in Wales won’t be the model for the UK. None of your fears have come to fruition here, have they?

foxie48

Fewer than a million voters are members of a political party and those that are tend towards more "extreme" views and by that I mean to the right or the left but it's the many millions with a vote who actually decide which party gets to govern. That's why party members having a say in who becomes leader tends to get it wrong. Corbyn was popular with LP members but extremely unpopular with the majority of voters, Boris and Truss are both popular with the Conservative party members but if Truss becomes PM I cannot see her winning a GE, unless of course, a far right government is seen as a safer option than a LP one. The left of the LP party need to get in line or start a new party. KP may not be seen as dynamic but I think the centre see him as honest and safe.

True but unfortunately the number of paying members matters to the functioning of the LP and at the moment it's on the verge of bankruptcy. It would be nice to have one party that wasn't dependant on private companies and rich individuals.
Can the Kier supporters please explain how he can be regarded as honest and principled? He made promises before he was elected leader and has broken them. No matter what he promises in a GE I'd struggle to believe he would really do it.

Very good comments foxie48

GrannyGravy13

DaisyAnne please do not lump all Conservative voters/party members together.

I know many including family members who have cancelled their membership. I know many who cannot vote for the party in the next GE unless there is a change in its direction to the far right

We are not all part of the ERG fan club.

I do so agree with you on this important point GrannyGravy13
I think the current trend to denigrate voters of a political party is a shameful one.Nobody knows what world events will happen and how a government or a PM will act once in power.
All they can go on is which party they think will do best at a general election.
I have friends of all political persuasions and they are all good people.

Fewer than a million voters are members of a political party and those that are tend towards more "extreme" views and by that I mean to the right or the left but it's the many millions with a vote who actually decide which party gets to govern. That's why party members having a say in who becomes leader tends to get it wrong. Corbyn was popular with LP members but extremely unpopular with the majority of voters, Boris and Truss are both popular with the Conservative party members but if Truss becomes PM I cannot see her winning a GE, unless of course, a far right government is seen as a safer option than a LP one. The left of the LP party need to get in line or start a new party. KP may not be seen as dynamic but I think the centre see him as honest and safe.

They are actually producing goals (which seem to be backed by plans) reasonably frequently now Maisie. However, our main news sources have become Conservative compliant and the LP is not very good at social media, so little becomes general knowledge.

I've posted this before. It's from the Labour website; their 'Stronger Together ' report. I don't think it would be there if it hadn't been approved by the Labour leader.

We need a New Deal for Working People, at the heart of which should be the commitment that workers have full rights from day one on the job. We should see an end to multiple different categories of employment under which working people are denied basic access to rights and protections such as Statutory Sick Pay (which should increase from its current levels), National Minimum Wage entitlement, holiday, paid parental leave and protection against unfair dismissal, depending on their status[22], with bogus self-employment used to exploit workers and drive down pay and standards across the board. It means strengthening workers’ collective rights through removing the restrictions on trade union activity so unions can support and empower working people. It also means the end of the appalling practice of ‘fire and rehire’, where workers are issued redundancy notices and then offered new contracts on worse pay and conditions. These bully-boy tactics are wrong: they punish good employers, hit working people hard and harm our economy[23]. Tackling these kind of challenges is central to the work being undertaken by Labour and our affiliated trade unions in the Power in the Workplace Task Force

It's from here:

labour.org.uk/stronger-together/britain-2030/

Has anyone else read it? It may not be the 'socialist dream' but it's better than what the tories have in store for the UK.

I accept we don’t have much choice Maybee. I certainly don’t want another Tory government. But it doesn’t stop me being sadly disappointed with the current Labour alternative.

I do trust Keir. I’ve listened to him talk about his beliefs. About what has shaped him. I was in tears when I listened to him on Desert Island Discs. I don’t think he finds it easy speaking about his family and his beliefs.I don’t understand why so many people don’t see him as I do. It isn’t just one person on Facebook speaking that way. It’s constant and Dianne Abbott belittles Keir day after day. There’s no alternative. He’s the party leader, there’s going to be an election and I don’t want another Conservative government. They unite behind whichever leader they have. I didn’t like Corbyn but I voted for him. I think Keir has more of a socialist soul than Corbyn but he sees that you can’t do anything if you’d can’t get elected. Maybe I’m wrong but I think it’s worth the risk.

Daisyanne I’m not far left. I’m a socialist, I want a fairer society. I don’t know what you define as far left?