Labour sacks shadow transport minister who backed strikes.

Casdon

Glorianny

foxie48

Glorianny if you go back to the 1940's it would also be true to say that Doctors didn't want the NHS but that certainly wouldn't be true of the doctors today, a lot of things change in 70 years. Surely the debate is more about how to fund the NHS adequately and what might or might not be a better model? When the NHS was set up it was generally thought that funding would decrease as the population became healthier, what was not anticipated was the huge increase in treatments, the growth in life expectancy and the ever increasing expectations of what can and should be treated. tbh I don't understand how the left of the LP got "the Tories to shift to the left and pretend they cared abut the NHS."

Because it's a left concept and one of the fears of the labour left now is that Starmer is about as committed to preventing privatisation as he has been to uniting the party. In other words Starmer and the left of centre Tories behave in similar ways. They praise the NHS because it wins them votes but work behind the scenes to dismantle it.
It could easily be funded . Remember how much money the government managed to splurge on ideas that didn't work during Covid?
Most doctors know the NHS gives the best care that's why they support it now. Unfortunately that isn't what Tory politicians support. Did you read about the private companies supported by Hunt in spite of them failing?

Honestly Glorianny, what planet are the left on? Has there been privatisation in the NHS in Wales, where it is devolved? No. Will there be privatisation of the NHS in England? No. Will there be short term use of the private sector to bring waiting lists under control, manage the current elective procedures crisis and enable more staff to be employed to work in the NHS of the future. Yes, of course there will. Is this what the public want? Yes, of course it is. It’s not rocket science.

"We've just had the biggest legislative change in parliment in the last decade that has now become law that completes the replication of the American system the creation of public private entities integrated care systems that effectively denationalises the NHS that turns it into a set of 42 budgets which are going to be controlled by the private sector run like the rail franchise system they'll have their own negotiating postions there will be a loss of national bargaining for the staff and the budgets that will be given over will be fixed from which they can withdraw a profit and the main way they are going to do that is to screw down the turns and conditions of the staff and deny care to the patients. The private sector are for profit Casdon not patient care. It's naive to think the private health will be of any help to NHS when it's proved the opposite.

When private supposedly sector took over during the pandemic they did a mere fraction of what NHS do and essentially took a back seat.

It's a big mistake Starmer keeping silent about this Wes Streeting has been given a donation from a private health concern.

The NHS was born because Ny Bevan experienced doctors in
South Wales mining valleys accepting a few pence a week from
workers to have treatment when needed , my family paid into
it.

I think I'd want any party in government to think carefully about how to fund the NHS adequately so that it provides a better service than we have currently. If that means using private facilities tbh I don't have a problem with that I just want them to be used efficiently so people in pain are not waiting for a long time to have their hips etc replaced. I think most people would want that. We cannot just increase the supply of services in the NHS but we could be creative in how we use what we have.

Glorianny

foxie48

Glorianny if you go back to the 1940's it would also be true to say that Doctors didn't want the NHS but that certainly wouldn't be true of the doctors today, a lot of things change in 70 years. Surely the debate is more about how to fund the NHS adequately and what might or might not be a better model? When the NHS was set up it was generally thought that funding would decrease as the population became healthier, what was not anticipated was the huge increase in treatments, the growth in life expectancy and the ever increasing expectations of what can and should be treated. tbh I don't understand how the left of the LP got "the Tories to shift to the left and pretend they cared abut the NHS."

Because it's a left concept and one of the fears of the labour left now is that Starmer is about as committed to preventing privatisation as he has been to uniting the party. In other words Starmer and the left of centre Tories behave in similar ways. They praise the NHS because it wins them votes but work behind the scenes to dismantle it.
It could easily be funded . Remember how much money the government managed to splurge on ideas that didn't work during Covid?
Most doctors know the NHS gives the best care that's why they support it now. Unfortunately that isn't what Tory politicians support. Did you read about the private companies supported by Hunt in spite of them failing?

Honestly Glorianny, what planet are the left on? Has there been privatisation in the NHS in Wales, where it is devolved? No. Will there be privatisation of the NHS in England? No. Will there be short term use of the private sector to bring waiting lists under control, manage the current elective procedures crisis and enable more staff to be employed to work in the NHS of the future. Yes, of course there will. Is this what the public want? Yes, of course it is. It’s not rocket science.

Starmer is wise not to launch a written in stone manifesto two
years before a general election .

foxie48

Glorianny if you go back to the 1940's it would also be true to say that Doctors didn't want the NHS but that certainly wouldn't be true of the doctors today, a lot of things change in 70 years. Surely the debate is more about how to fund the NHS adequately and what might or might not be a better model? When the NHS was set up it was generally thought that funding would decrease as the population became healthier, what was not anticipated was the huge increase in treatments, the growth in life expectancy and the ever increasing expectations of what can and should be treated. tbh I don't understand how the left of the LP got "the Tories to shift to the left and pretend they cared abut the NHS."

Because it's a left concept and one of the fears of the labour left now is that Starmer is about as committed to preventing privatisation as he has been to uniting the party. In other words Starmer and the left of centre Tories behave in similar ways. They praise the NHS because it wins them votes but work behind the scenes to dismantle it.
It could easily be funded . Remember how much money the government managed to splurge on ideas that didn't work during Covid?
Most doctors know the NHS gives the best care that's why they support it now. Unfortunately that isn't what Tory politicians support. Did you read about the private companies supported by Hunt in spite of them failing?

Glorianny if you go back to the 1940's it would also be true to say that Doctors didn't want the NHS but that certainly wouldn't be true of the doctors today, a lot of things change in 70 years. Surely the debate is more about how to fund the NHS adequately and what might or might not be a better model? When the NHS was set up it was generally thought that funding would decrease as the population became healthier, what was not anticipated was the huge increase in treatments, the growth in life expectancy and the ever increasing expectations of what can and should be treated. tbh I don't understand how the left of the LP got "the Tories to shift to the left and pretend they cared abut the NHS."

Some people's perception of history is distorted. The Tories never wanted an NHS keepournhspublic.com/the-conservatives-never-were-the-party-of-the-nhs-and-history-proves-it/
As for today's Tories and the NHS. They make all the right noises whilst representing and supporting the companies waiting to get their hands on certain services. Like Jeremy Hunt for example who managed to give contracts to private companies who had already failed in providing care. www.opendemocracy.net/en/jeremy-hunt-tory-leadership-boris-johnson-nhs-junior-doctors/

You can call them left wing or right wing Tories neither of them care about the NHS but they all pretend they do because it's a vote winner.

I think, in the old "broad-church" conservative party, large numbers did care about the NHS. The New Conservatives/Tories/Far-right, call them what you will, have thrown most of those representing these people out and moved the Party towards the extreme right. They were able to do all this as a reaction to the possibility of a far-left government. The Labour party of recent years has achieved nothing by the sort of vituperation we see on this thread.

DaisyAnne

foxie48

Actually Grany Stalin would have had you shot. I'm not as politically active as you are and I don't know much about the internal politics of the LP so I wonder if you can help me to understand something. Can you tell me what the left wing of the LP has achieved in the last 40 years? I understand that those on the left consider New Labour under Blair were "red Tories" or words to that effect and the many good things that happened under that leadership are now completely discredited because of the War in Iraq, so I'm not thinking about that period. Just anything really that has benefitted society and the lot of the "working man and woman", just changed things for the better?

With the level of this debate, I imagine you could now see an argument about whether Blair et al were "Red Tories" or Blue Labour". It is all quite inane.

The biggest achievement of the left wing of the LP was getting the Tories to shift to the left and pretend they cared abut the NHS. Something they never wanted and never supported, but which they knew would lose them votes so they pretended they did.

foxie48

Actually Grany Stalin would have had you shot. I'm not as politically active as you are and I don't know much about the internal politics of the LP so I wonder if you can help me to understand something. Can you tell me what the left wing of the LP has achieved in the last 40 years? I understand that those on the left consider New Labour under Blair were "red Tories" or words to that effect and the many good things that happened under that leadership are now completely discredited because of the War in Iraq, so I'm not thinking about that period. Just anything really that has benefitted society and the lot of the "working man and woman", just changed things for the better?

With the level of this debate, I imagine you could now see an argument about whether Blair et al were "Red Tories" or Blue Labour". It is all quite inane.

Grany

Audrey White

4 days after I challenged Starmer to his face about lying to party members, I receive this letter from Labour HQ terminating my membership. Shameless & vindictive. A party rotten to the core, that can’t tolerate being held to account by a 71 year old. Even Stalin might’ve blushed

Grany I’m sure you know that Audrey White is a militant, she also left Labour when Tony Blair was the leader. Can you explain what the fact that she is 71 has to do with anything?

Actually Grany Stalin would have had you shot. I'm not as politically active as you are and I don't know much about the internal politics of the LP so I wonder if you can help me to understand something. Can you tell me what the left wing of the LP has achieved in the last 40 years? I understand that those on the left consider New Labour under Blair were "red Tories" or words to that effect and the many good things that happened under that leadership are now completely discredited because of the War in Iraq, so I'm not thinking about that period. Just anything really that has benefitted society and the lot of the "working man and woman", just changed things for the better?

Audrey White

4 days after I challenged Starmer to his face about lying to party members, I receive this letter from Labour HQ terminating my membership. Shameless & vindictive. A party rotten to the core, that can’t tolerate being held to account by a 71 year old. Even Stalin might’ve blushed

We each got to get rid of this government. They’re destroying everything. I don’t care who did what in the Labour Party any more. I’m sick of living in a country controlled by such evil people. I’ve just had enough of them.

Except I am criticising Starmer for not throwing people out. I wish he had taken such decisive action against those officials who worked against the party from within, rather than rewarding them.

To me he epitomises the far left of the party, the people that Keir is up against. And when people criticise Keir for throwing people out I’m just pointing out that Corbyn did so when people broke the rules.

MayBee70

So how did you feel about Corbynite Chris Williamson standing against the Labour candidate and trying to poach votes from them?

Was this addressed to me MayBee?

I’m not sure what this has to do with anything I’ve said to be honest. I’m sure you know Chris Williamson was dealt with under disciplinary procedures and thrown out of the party. The fact he chose to then stand as an independent candidate was his business. The party had ditched him.

Casdon

I wish it were different, but I believe that there is no longer any chance of bringing people together, the gap is unbridgeable. The ire of the left of the party is focussed on Keir Starmer, but fundamentally he isn’t the problem, it’s the dogmatic denial that the party has to change that’s the problem. You can keep on shroud waving on the left, but the country has moved on, and the party has to as well, if not Starmer there will be another centre right leader. That’s why a split will come.

I have a feeling you are right Casdon. I agree with this quote from Lisa Nandy: “I disliked the cults around Blair and Corbyn: one man doesn’t change things”.

There is an interview with her in the Summer Special edition of the New Statesman. The way I read it is that she sees what I have seen David Owen elsewhere call Starmer's "inexperience" as an asset. He’s not steeped in career politics. He’s come in a lot more recently, and he’s very challenging of why people hold the views they do. I think that has helped us – it’s one thing to feel the public mood, but another to turn that into a strategy. When we are together as a team, you can see how the strength of the people he has put around him makes him much more concrete.”

I also have never seen leadership as only about one person. If he can create a team that can make things happen - something we haven't had for 12 years - he could have the makings of a great leader. He will, if he becomes PM, be taking over at a time very like the post-war era when great things could, and must, be achieved.

the better

Ilovecheese

So any criticism of Keir Starmer's leadership is "loud and self-righteous" "spite and nastiness" well gosh thanks, a great way to bring people together.

Please don't misreport what I have said Ilovecheese. At no point did I say that any criticism ..., etc.

varian

One of the benefits of electoral reform would be the creation of new parties.

Both the LP and the Cons are unhealthy coalitions of people who fundamently disagree.with each other about near;y everything.

They should both split into extremes and moderates,

That way the voters could be offered a better choice and eventually the UK could become a true democracy.

Exactly. As I have now said on several occasions on several threads.

If we are going to have coalitions we should have those we vote for, not those under cover of a single name, the better.

I guess Starmer was looked on as the leader that would bring the party more to the centre in the way that Kinnock did to make way for someone else to defeat the Conservatives in the future. But there isn’t time for that as the Conservatives are destroying the country. I think that was eluded to in the Beth Rigby interview. It was always going to be an uphill struggle after the Scottish vote was lost. I really am in despair at the moment.

I wish it were different, but I believe that there is no longer any chance of bringing people together, the gap is unbridgeable. The ire of the left of the party is focussed on Keir Starmer, but fundamentally he isn’t the problem, it’s the dogmatic denial that the party has to change that’s the problem. You can keep on shroud waving on the left, but the country has moved on, and the party has to as well, if not Starmer there will be another centre right leader. That’s why a split will come.

Quote: On forums like Gransnet, many thought Corbyn was the next great chance of socialism and wouldn't hear anything against him. Their attitude to those who queried what he was doing and what he stood for was pretty extreme.

That is really not how I remember it.

There were many, many posts who did more than query, they laughed at and insulted the previous leader.