Labour sacks shadow transport minister who backed strikes.

Blimey Varian I find myself agreeing with you ?

So any criticism of Keir Starmer's leadership is "loud and self-righteous" "spite and nastiness" well gosh thanks, a great way to bring people together.

One of the benefits of electoral reform would be the creation of new parties.

Both the LP and the Cons are unhealthy coalitions of people who fundamently disagree.with each other about near;y everything.

They should both split into extremes and moderates,

That way the voters could be offered a better choice and eventually the UK could become a true democracy.

The furthest thing from democracy in the LP at the moment is Starmer who has consistently taken decisions that were not in the party's interests or in the interests of its members. Even Blair tolerated the left wing . He just used Alistair Campbell to control them.

DaisyAnne

Grany

Sat 30-Jul-22 12:02:21
Supporters of Starmer on GN you can see here that many people doubt him and have reasons to criticise him.

That's not what I 'see' Grany. It's just a collection of loud and self-righteous voices who believe they, and only they, have the word of some God. I see spite and nastiness and no attempt to work together towards the best achievable outcome because they are sure they, and only they, can achieve nirvana for all, whether "all" want their nirvana or not. I see something that seems as far away from democracy as the current far-right government does.

Exactly as you say DaisyAnne.

I didn’t hear the end of it today, I have though heard people in my red wall area saying similar things. It’s curious that the left obsess about Starmer having a knighthood and don’t accept he wasn’t brought up in wealth.

There was one chap at the end of Any Answers Iam who voted for Johnson because he wanted Brexit but has been put off them by Party Gate. He was, from what he said, a mainly Labour voter in the past although he had once voted Lib Dem. He is happy to vote for Starmer "because the fact is he's honest".

One thing I am sure of is that most people are put off by the ranters, unless they are one of that unpleasant minority, and make their own minds up.

I agree with your analysis DaisyAnne.
I also struggle with why Gloryanny believes the red wall hate politicians like Starmer but gave ‘Johnson a huge majority

Grany

Sat 30-Jul-22 12:02:21
Supporters of Starmer on GN you can see here that many people doubt him and have reasons to criticise him.

That's not what I 'see' Grany. It's just a collection of loud and self-righteous voices who believe they, and only they, have the word of some God. I see spite and nastiness and no attempt to work together towards the best achievable outcome because they are sure they, and only they, can achieve nirvana for all, whether "all" want their nirvana or not. I see something that seems as far away from democracy as the current far-right government does.

Casdon

Glorianny

Let's make this very clear I don't believe Starmer can win a GE. So my criticisms are absolutely legitimate and well intentioned. I don't believe he has the ability to win back the red wall or to attract many votes from people who traditionally vote Tory. The man has the personality of a doormat. As for throwing people out of the party being a start to unification, at the rate things are going by the next GE there won't be enough people left in the party to do anything, so perhaps it will be united, unfortunately it will also be bankrupt.
How you can fight a GE without any money I don't know

Glorianny, you are entitled to your opinion, just remember that doesn’t mean you are right - it’s just your opinion, and ours are allowed to be different.

Of course they can Casdon and I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with people who accuse me of trying to undermine the party and not caring if they lose. Of course I want them to win. I just don't see Starmer as the person to manage that for all the reasons I have given.
No one has yet explained to me why the Red Wall will change back for him. He's exactly the sort of politician they hate.

So how did you feel about Corbynite Chris Williamson standing against the Labour candidate and trying to poach votes from them?

DaisyAnne

nightowl

But it is true that the left of the party are the ones accused of scuppering the Labour party’s chances at elections. Whereas the Forde report confirmed that paid officials actively plotted to undermine the campaign during the 2019 election, and diverted funds away from candidates they didn’t like and from winnable seats. Now if that’s not grounds for immediate sacking and expulsion from the party I don’t know what is. But instead they were paid off and are still party members. Double standards operating here methinks.

I think that is your own bias speaking nightowl. On forums like Gransnet, many thought Corbyn was the next great chance of socialism and wouldn't hear anything against him. Their attitude to those who queried what he was doing and what he stood for was pretty extreme.

If your post is about how the factions of the Labour Party behaved, that's probably a discussion for another place. No one on GN can do anything about it. From an outsider's point of view, there still appears to be plenty of undermining of the current leader. In either case, I think LP members are shooting themselves in the foot.

Why do they do that?

Dausyanne, do you really think there is no difference between individuals being biased towards their favoured candidate, and paid officials of any party taking action to undermine the chances of an election victory? These were employees, officials paid from Labour Party funds, who acted against the party which employed them. If you think me being biased against KS (as you see it) and speaking about it is just the same then I really don’t know what else I can say.

There will be a Labour Party leadership election before the general election , the far left are in full action

I support the Labour Party. There is an election coming up. I voted for Corbyn in the last election because I want a Labour government. I shall vote for Labour with Keir as leader for the same reason. Do the electorate actually look at the minutiae of detail that Labour members seem to forensically dissect about who said or promised what? And while this is happening the Conservative party are making themselves above the law, something that they actually said they would do in their manifesto. I’ve read that Braverman isn’t telling MP’s if they break the law because it doesn’t bother the party if they do. This is what we’re facing.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/28/post-corbyn-vision-labour-keir-starmer-leadership#comment-157872375

Supporters of Starmer on GN you can see here that many people doubt him and have reasons to criticise him.

MP of the Year Ian Byrne is fighting for survival in Starmer's Labour
Right to Food champion Ian Byrne has already lost 3 trigger ballots, all in suspicious circumstances. Who wants him out?

The idea that Tarry should need to ‘make up’ the idea that workers should have a fair pay rise speaks volumes, but the towering hypocrisy of StarmerAfter all, in 2018 Keir Starmer did exactly ‘make up policy’, inserting a line into his conference speech about remain being an option in a new Brexit referendum that had not been agreed with Jeremy Corbyn and his team and was not party policy.

Starmer is a con man a liar and a cheat.

Dr Bob Gill said Starmer is not on your side Not a word from him telling people what is happening to the NHS still wants to keep private providers which costs a fortune and do not help the NHS

What has happened to the Labour party that it can’t stand up for labour?
John McDonnell

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/28/labour-party-cost-of-living-keir-starmer-striking-workers?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

What happened to the post-Corbyn vision for Labour? Keir Starmer offers nothing
Neal Lawsonhttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/28/post-corbyn-vision-labour-keir-starmer-leadership#comment-157872375

Keir Starmer’s game isn’t to inspire with hope and a grand vision, but to play a glorified game of whack-a-mole with every possible Tory attack line. He promises, for example, “no magic money tree economics”, no nationalisation of public services, that Labour won’t talk to the SNP or deal with Liberal Democrats.

Labour puts itself in a terrible position. It won’t spend its way out of the cost of living crisis and the recession to come because it’s busy tying itself up in orthodox Treasury knots, spewing out the line that governments are like households and can’t spend what they don’t have. Which is absurd, first, because households often spend what they don’t have, not least through mortgages. Governments can both borrow like that (with better rates and terms) or they can print money – as they did throughout Covid. But Labour is determinedly shutting this door, play-acting at what it thinks political grownups do.

It is also shutting the door on one of the best solutions to the cost of living crisis. One of the jobs of a union is to negotiate better wages from company profits, and it’s clear people are willing to go on strike rather than suffer eye-watering real wage cuts that leave their families short. It is the job of the party of labour to back them. To be clear, none of this is some Scargillite game of revolutionary toy soldiers. This is ordinary union action, using methods – such as strikes – familiar to all and protected by law. Moreover, this is a real-life crisis for millions of scared ordinary people. Labour cannot afford to be seen as anything but on their side.

A letter to Starmer from a member of the working class.

www.councilestatemedia.uk/2021/06/a-letter-to-sir-keir-starmer-from.html

How the right took back control of Labour. The Starmer Project Book.

A prosecutor for the establishment
The record of Starmer’s early career counters the narrative that his left-to-right trajectory occurred in the face of realpolitik. His time as DPP was marked by defending state abuses of power. He prevented Home Office officials responsible for the death of migrant Jimmy Mubenga from being charged, he did the same for PC Harwood, the officer responsible for killing Ian Tomlinson, the newspaper vendor who died following the G20 protests, and most famously he refused to bring charges against the killers of Jean Charles de Menezes, shot dead by police at Stockwell tube station. Similarly, Starmer protected the Spycops who used their undercover roles to abuse women. In contrast, he pursued Julian Assange and hacker Gary McKinnon. Whistleblowers and protesters were fair game, but not MI5 agents who torture or police who kill and abuse. Eagleton explodes the myth of Starmer as radical lawyer with example after shocking example. That Starmer defended the McLibel activists in his early career was the exception rather than the rule.Starmer’s close relationship with the US state will be a revelation to many. During his tenure the CPS acted ‘as a proxy’ (p.29) for the US State Department overseas, with Starmer himself becoming an envoy for the US Department of Justice. He forged close links with US Attorney General, Eric Holder, at one point going way beyond his remit by promising to secure Gary McKinnon’s extradition - a young man who, while looking for evidence of UFOs, hacked into US military databases. Eagleton describes Starmer’s ‘fury’ (p.31) with Theresa May when as Home Secretary she stopped the extradition. In one heart-rending passage Eagleton quotes McKinnon’s mother after she met Starmer to plead her son’s case. In it she tells of Starmer’s response to her pleas: ‘“I’m feeling very uncomfortable,” said Mr Starmer. “Speaking to you is making me feel very uncomfortable”’ (p.30). His lack of interest and concern in her son could not have been more transparent.

Iam64

Our CLP is like many others. There’s a vocal group of activists who tend to dominate meetings. They wanted a vote of no confidence in Starmer for conference last year. They lost the vote by 5 people. The more moderates arrived in force after the proposal was shared on line. I’m expecting they’ll be putting the same proposal this year.
They seem unable to move on from, there was no anti semitism, JC was brought down by the right wing press and right wing of the LP. Can’t seem to understand constituents we spoke to on the phones and doorsteps whose comments always included, I’m not voting with JC as leader, untrustworthy, anti semitic, not patriotic, won’t defend our country, big spending not funded etc etc.
the right wing press, a key supported by the Guardian is doing all it can to undermine Starmer. Owen Jones, in the Guardian this week advised people to film themselves shouting abuse at Starmer. He seems to have forgotten two MPs have been murdered, many had death threats and abuse. Is he 5 years old and a naughty boy:

Now that is an interesting insight. Thank you Iam.

nightowl

But it is true that the left of the party are the ones accused of scuppering the Labour party’s chances at elections. Whereas the Forde report confirmed that paid officials actively plotted to undermine the campaign during the 2019 election, and diverted funds away from candidates they didn’t like and from winnable seats. Now if that’s not grounds for immediate sacking and expulsion from the party I don’t know what is. But instead they were paid off and are still party members. Double standards operating here methinks.

I think that is your own bias speaking nightowl. On forums like Gransnet, many thought Corbyn was the next great chance of socialism and wouldn't hear anything against him. Their attitude to those who queried what he was doing and what he stood for was pretty extreme.

If your post is about how the factions of the Labour Party behaved, that's probably a discussion for another place. No one on GN can do anything about it. From an outsider's point of view, there still appears to be plenty of undermining of the current leader. In either case, I think LP members are shooting themselves in the foot.

Why do they do that?

I won’t buy the Guardian because of Owen Jones. If people like Chris Bryant, Peter Kyle, Dan Jarvis, Yvette Cooper said that they don’t trust Keir and can’t work under him I would definitely reappraise how I feel about him but the people that want him out are the very people I don’t have any time for. Jess Phillips said on TLL that no one in the Labour Party had been told not to go on picket lines but that they would expect to be thrown out if they started doing interviews in which they talked about non existent party policies which is what the MP in question did. Chris Williamson had to leave his post for doing something similar didn’t he and it was Corbyn that reprimanded him. He also, as someone who supposedly wanted Corbyn to be PM, stood as an independent at the last election in a marginal seat in an attempt to split the vote.

Our CLP is like many others. There’s a vocal group of activists who tend to dominate meetings. They wanted a vote of no confidence in Starmer for conference last year. They lost the vote by 5 people. The more moderates arrived in force after the proposal was shared on line. I’m expecting they’ll be putting the same proposal this year.
They seem unable to move on from, there was no anti semitism, JC was brought down by the right wing press and right wing of the LP. Can’t seem to understand constituents we spoke to on the phones and doorsteps whose comments always included, I’m not voting with JC as leader, untrustworthy, anti semitic, not patriotic, won’t defend our country, big spending not funded etc etc.
the right wing press, a key supported by the Guardian is doing all it can to undermine Starmer. Owen Jones, in the Guardian this week advised people to film themselves shouting abuse at Starmer. He seems to have forgotten two MPs have been murdered, many had death threats and abuse. Is he 5 years old and a naughty boy:

Iam64

I can’t understand what the people who claim to want the tories defeated do all they can to undermine the L
P

Neither can I, Iam. I do wonder how many are members - or perhaps that is the problem. Maybe they expect a party of the size of Labour to be in their own image ... or what Foxie said.

In 2019 out of 13.9 million votes there were only 485 thousand members. Voters matter and fighting amongst the membership will not help.

Glorianny

MayBee70

So why are they ahead in the polls?

Oh come on if they weren't with the current Tory shambles it would be worrying. But being ahead in the polls doesn't mean you will win enough seats in an election.

Sadly I think that those on the left of the LP don't want to win a GE because it would prove them wrong. They would rather be in permanent opposition and able to take the moral high road than have the opportunity to start to make the country a better place by compromising some of their ideals. I guess I'm more of a pragmatist.

I can’t understand what the people who claim to want the tories defeated do all they can to undermine the L
P

Glorianny

Let's make this very clear I don't believe Starmer can win a GE. So my criticisms are absolutely legitimate and well intentioned. I don't believe he has the ability to win back the red wall or to attract many votes from people who traditionally vote Tory. The man has the personality of a doormat. As for throwing people out of the party being a start to unification, at the rate things are going by the next GE there won't be enough people left in the party to do anything, so perhaps it will be united, unfortunately it will also be bankrupt.
How you can fight a GE without any money I don't know

Glorianny, you are entitled to your opinion, just remember that doesn’t mean you are right - it’s just your opinion, and ours are allowed to be different.

MayBee70

So why are they ahead in the polls?

Oh come on if they weren't with the current Tory shambles it would be worrying. But being ahead in the polls doesn't mean you will win enough seats in an election.