Transphobic Bullying

To return to "What can adults do?"

They could moderate their reactions if children are about, but that is very unlikely to happen. The days of "Pas devant les enfants" are long gone. Even small children know more about the world than did many grown women not so long ago. You can't put the genie back into the bottle.

In any case, teenagers get most of their information and attitudes from their friends and their social media than from their parents. Adults could campaign to have social media censored, but they would meet a lot of resistance.

The root cause of school bullying is children or teenagers who feel that they can only "be someone" if they are making somone else feel bad. They use whatever they think will hurt.

Using transition as a weapon is because it is in the news, and because they are specifically being exhorted to think about ambiguous people and be specially nice to them, and told how to recognise them. They take this advice and turn it on its head into "Be nasty to anyone showing these traits, and show them how much more powerful you are than them"

So being transphobic is a power play in general?

No, bullying people is a powerplay in general. They are not really transphobic, they don't give a damn either way about transpeople, but they do like putting people down, as it makes them feel that they are not as useless as they have made someone else feel.

As for Stonewall, they are professional lobbyers, they should have known that overkill would turn some people against their project, but after their contribution helped get acceptance for gays anf lesbians, they thought they could walk on water.

That was about school bullies. I have no idea what makes some people genuinely phobic about trans people - but adults do things for uch the same reasons as children do. Perhaps low self esteem about themselves comes into it, or perhaps fear of the world they know disintegrating around them.

I don't know how it is possible to tell if its a general bully or transphobia at work

And I don't think people with reservations about the speed and brutality with which transition has suddenly become so widespread are necessarily phobic. They could just see the problems ahead for society moe clearly than others do.

Oh.

VioletSky

I don't know how it is possible to tell if its a general bully or transphobia at work

You can't. That is why so many people are saying that what needs to be done in schools is condemn ALL bullying, and not make mention of transition as a separate variety. That catches all motives, and it doesn't put transition into a special category of "We must be very gentle with these people in particular", which the bullies will change into "I can really hurt these people - or even people I accuse of being these people. Yippee!"

If you can't tell if it is general bullying or transphobia, then how does a one size fit all approach actually work?

People who are transphibic can't see anything wrong with their behaviour, they think they are right and justified...

So how many words or phrases would we need to outlaw?

Even if under a "general bullying policy" you addressed what are obviously rude words and not allowed..

How would we then stop children being ostracised for being trans or not conforming to gender norms?

Surely that is another form of bullying?

One that I know well having an autistic child and seeing every child get a party invite except mine (not all familes) because of stereotypes about autism.

If we don't deal with the source of bullying and lead by example, how do we ever expect better from children?

I don't believe that children and teenagers who bully ARE transphobic. They are just plain bullies who take advantage of a chink in someone's armour to attack.

Time will mellow general reactions to trans people. Pushing too hard on people (children, teenagers or adults) to be specially nice to them is counterproductive.

The problem is, that goes against my training, education and experience.

Obviously I will likely be told that my training and education are heavily influenced by Stonewall ( even though I have seen no evidence they are)

And will likely be told my experience is influenced by being a TRA (whatever that is) even though I actually agree with or at least understand a lot of the issues raised..

Full circle?

VioletSky

doodledog as I keep saying I don't agree.

I think some of it is parroting what children are exposed too and they probably don't see themselves as bullies at all because it's fine for adults to say these things and even be applauded for doing so....

Which is why I asked, what can adults do to take responsibility?

Which as the main question in my post, has been *avoided entirely*

No it hasn't (been avoided repeatedly) - you just don't listen.

What adults could do is not behave in ways which belittle others, which vie for status by putting others down, which favour 'in' groups and which do not see others as equal. They could refrain from using words to shock, so they don't teach children that they can use them to hurt, and they could discuss with their children the reasons why some words are considered hurtful and why.

If you can think of a way to persuade them to do that, you will get the Nobel Peace Prize.

What school staff could do is to think of ways to ensure that all children have high status for something, so they don't feel the need to put others down, or to create an 'interior' group.

Again, good luck with that, for the reasons I have already posted upthread.

I don't think high status would be necessary

Just equality

Saying that something can't be true because it goes against your training is putting the cart before the horse, letting the tail wag the dog, and various other animal metaphors. training should reflect reality, rather than reality being made to fit what you are taught in training.

You clearly feel an element of cognitive dissonance about it, so why not ask the trainers the questions you are asking us?

VioletSky

I don't think high status would be necessary

Just equality

Children are little humans, and human nature is to gain status. As I suggested upthread, children don't have much opportunity to achieve status of their own, particularly in schools. If they are not good at sport or academically clever, they can only really get status in negative ways - if they put others down they are not at the bottom of the pack. They do this by picking out difference, and by picking on those who seem weaker.

Again, you don't have to agree, but it would be better if you said why not, than just ignoring the posts and then complaining that nobody is answering your questions.

That's an odd thing to say honestly

Training comes from research and understanding

And it constantly evolves when new information becomes available

Your training and your updates ( I believe you are teacher, or work in a school) were probably done by your local authority. The link below is a list of the organisations which joined Stonewall's Diversity Champions scheme, for those who were following Stonewalls's lead in matters concerning changing transition law and similar projects. Stonewall organises training sessions for these Champions on how to support trans people.
The list contains a lot of local authorities. If yours is among them, the policy in your area has probably been formulated according to Stonewall's tenets, and uses Stonewall's material.
sex-matters.org/stonewall-champions-list/

Many Universities are also Champions.
sex-matters.org/where-sex-matters/universities/

So my view is, let's stop scapegoating trans people for issues they haven't caused by simply existing. Let's treat them the way we want to be treated.

Does that include telling girl pupils that transgirls (boys) can use the same changing rooms and toilets with them (and vice versa)?
If so, that does cause an issue for those who don't want the opposite sex in those places and it's not surprising if there is resentment of trans people.

I'm very sure a minority cannot ultimately bully a majority

Just the awareness that one man might be in a single sex place, such as a women's swimming session or a women's support group, can be enough to cause women to stay away.
A minority is bullying the majority.

Hmm not sure how to address all of that really

But what I will say is there are always times in classrooms where we have to say, kind hands, kind feet

Because positive reinforcement is known to work better than no hitting no kicking

But what really works is teaching empathy and helping children understand and relate to each other

I'm a TA (SEN and emotional support)

And I will take the time to teach children empathy

VioletSky

That's an odd thing to say honestly

Training comes from research and understanding

And it constantly evolves when new information becomes available

Training is not necessarily based on research - it is designed to teach specific skills, so that trainees can follow a particular agenda.

As Elegran has said, Stonewall is behind the vast majority of training (as well as HR policies) in LEAs and universities. I am not aware of any organisation that provides training (or education) in diversity since the EOC closed, although it is some time since I was responsible for running Equal Opps courses. Stonewall will accept No Debate about their assertion that TWAW, and all of their policies and programmes stem from that. If a training session on drinking wine told you that research had shown that it is good for you because it widens the arteries, and you should drink 2 bottles a night, would you assume that this was right, particularly if you knew that the people behind the seminar were working for the drinks industry?

Just because you are trained to think in a particular way doesn't mean that it is necessarily right, and whereas Stonewall aren't known for welcoming any sort of dissent you should still be able to ask questions in a training session.

Can you teach empathy? Surely that comes from within? You can certainly teach what empathy means, I'm not sure you can teach someone to genuinely feel it.

I think you are assuming I don't have any ability to rationalise or think for myself

So I don't see a point replying

Who is that reply to VS Doodledog or me?

Your I post VS

No one one GN, as far as I am aware has denied that gender dysphoria exists.
No one on GN has said that transgender bullying does not exist.

I have pointed out that in my experience trans, are capable of using ‘transphobia claims’ to bully children who are not trans. I’m still not sure whether you were among those who refuted that being a possibility, but it doesn’t matter whether you accept it or not, because it’s true and the perpetrator is still doing it.

But I would counsel that, people can hold their protected beliefs when it comes to sex and still be accepting accommodating and polite to trans people.
What a strange sentence.

I’m not a counsellor, but the only lack of accommodating and acceptance of trans people I’ve seen on GN is where support for TW to access female spaces, whether in refuges, hospitals, toilets changing rooms, jobs or sport has made posters, including me say they think that’s wrong, and not in female’s best interests.

I have been told many times on GN, that trans people have existed peacefully and unnoticed for many years.
I, and many others have pointed out that those existing trans have been done a great disservice by the current activities of TRA and those TW who want to use the status of TW for purposes I mentioned above and who have gone about trying to do that, or support that in a deceitful and violent manner.

^ That women's safe spaces need protecting all the while dangerous and abusive men exist.^
Another strange qualification, unless you truly believe there will be a time when no males who are dangerous and abusive will exist.
I’d like to have responded to more of your post, but after my hospital consultation this morning, I have a head ache, so must rest.