Transphobic Bullying

Bullying!

No point in going over and over - trisher doesn’t read what you put anyway, simply ignores what’s true, refuses to answer when she can’t come up with anything that will support her statements - there’s a word for that . . .

Smileless2012

Exactly where in her post has Doodledog given the impression that she would expect a teacher to wash their hands of a child with suicidal tendencies Glorianny?

I didn’t, but it seems the latest sport is to have me go over and over what I’ve said in different ways, to deal with the faux incredulity at what I am supposed to believe. It’s a game I’ve played before on here. Tiresome, but predictable.

You seem to live in a permanent state of incredulity, Glorianny, largely based on a determination to find fault with my posts .

Of course I don’t imagine that there are no suicidal children, or that teachers don’t come across them. I can’t tell from your post what you mean by ‘have to deal with them’, but as I’ve said, I don’t think that beyond ensuring the child’s immediate safety it is the role of a teacher to get involved, and I also (separately) think that where trans issues are concerned they could easily do more harm than good, as could anyone who is unqualified and inexperienced - I am not singling out teachers, as you seem determined to suggest.

Personally, In that role I would try to stamp on any form of bullying, would call a child what they preferred, within reason - as you say, that is a triviality - and can’t think of many areas where their sex should really matter to how they are taught.

Whether the school should have a ‘gender neutral’ policy for things like showers and toilets is more contentious, but that is for the SMT and Governors to decide, surely? I suppose I would go along with whatever was decided, and if the policy and my role in enforcing it went too far beyond what my conscience would allow I would change schools.

Exactly where in her post has Doodledog given the impression that she would expect a teacher to wash their hands of a child with suicidal tendencies Glorianny?

Doodledog

Well that's a change of attitude from 'what if a teacher is confronted with a child threatening suicide?' stance you were taking a few posts ago.

I am absolutely not condemning teachers, if that was another dig at me. I am simply pointing out that if, as you suggested, they are dealing with suicidal children they should instead be referring them to the appropriate people, and even though help is nowhere near as readily available as it should be they should not be getting involved.

Of course it isn't a change of attitude. The main focus for any teacher is the welfare of the cild and if that involves accepting their trans status well that will happen. Do you really imagine that there are not suicidal children? Or that teachers never have to deal with them? Of course they refer them but they are still involved in the day to day care so like it or not they are involved. What do you expect them to do wash their hands of the child?

Of course a child threatening suicide should be referred to whoever has the appropriate training. Sometimes you're left wondering why the obvious has to be stated aren't you Doodeldog.

Well that's a change of attitude from 'what if a teacher is confronted with a child threatening suicide?' stance you were taking a few posts ago.

I am absolutely not condemning teachers, if that was another dig at me. I am simply pointing out that if, as you suggested, they are dealing with suicidal children they should instead be referring them to the appropriate people, and even though help is nowhere near as readily available as it should be they should not be getting involved.

Doodledog

*Those looking at this as some sort of idealistic crusade, who will roundly condemn them whatever they do.*

Another personal insult?

How long is it since you were in teaching? Unless I am mistaken, you are not posting from the perspective of a practising teacher, but as someone on an idealistic crusade yourself?

I wasn't 'roundly condemning' teachers, but saying that they should be protected from the responsibility of dealing with situations outside of their remit. I also feel that children need to be protected from 'well-meaning' school staff who have neither qualifications nor expertise in this area but have been captured by the propaganda. I still work in post-compulsory education, and would not dream of counselling a student who approached me with issues like this, and even when I was more closely involved in personal tutoring was well aware of when to refer. To do so would be unprofessional and potentially dangerous.

It is clear from this thread alone that both suicide risk and the incidence of gender dysphoria have been grossly over-estimated, which is what happens when people attend occasional training sessions as part of a larger programme of staff development in various areas, and don't have the subject-specific background to properly assess things that they are told. Such courses are more about awareness raising than they can possibly be about treatment or policy, and a good teacher will, IMO, be fully aware of that and not presume to act in lieu of a MH professional.

I've no idealistic crusade. I don't think there is any single solution to the problem. I do know teachers cope with children going through all sorts of traumas and trans will be dealt with just as other things are. They don't act in lieu of anyone, they just deal with the everyday issues of children who are being badly let down by services which are underfunded and inadequate. And they do so whilst being accused of all sorts of things by people who seem determined to blame them.

Most of my friends are teachers. None of them have ever done this.

Now, teachers do tell pupils that they may be trans and give them ideas about how they can know. Schools also enforce the coaching of any child who thinks they are trans by treating them completely as if they are the opposite sex, and insisting that all pupils do so too.

Those looking at this as some sort of idealistic crusade, who will roundly condemn them whatever they do.

Another personal insult?

How long is it since you were in teaching? Unless I am mistaken, you are not posting from the perspective of a practising teacher, but as someone on an idealistic crusade yourself?

I wasn't 'roundly condemning' teachers, but saying that they should be protected from the responsibility of dealing with situations outside of their remit. I also feel that children need to be protected from 'well-meaning' school staff who have neither qualifications nor expertise in this area but have been captured by the propaganda. I still work in post-compulsory education, and would not dream of counselling a student who approached me with issues like this, and even when I was more closely involved in personal tutoring was well aware of when to refer. To do so would be unprofessional and potentially dangerous.

It is clear from this thread alone that both suicide risk and the incidence of gender dysphoria have been grossly over-estimated, which is what happens when people attend occasional training sessions as part of a larger programme of staff development in various areas, and don't have the subject-specific background to properly assess things that they are told. Such courses are more about awareness raising than they can possibly be about treatment or policy, and a good teacher will, IMO, be fully aware of that and not presume to act in lieu of a MH professional.

Doodledog

If a child (or adult) threatens suicide they need to be referred to MH agencies, as it is way beyond the remit or training of a teacher to deal with it. A teacher getting involved with something that is causing a child to threaten suicide should be disciplined and any SMT that expects that of staff should be referred to the union urgently to protect the teacher.

Also, nobody (adult or child) should be able to use threats of suicide to get their own way, however harsh that sounds. It is very unhealthy to allow that to happen, as it gives power to people who may well be abusing it, and can push genuinely suicidal people into a corner.

Of course they should but as we all know CAHM is vastly overloaded and gender clinics have a 4 years+ waiting list. Meanwhile teachers and parents cope as best they can, with of course criticism from those looking at this as some sort of idealistic crusade, who will roundly condemn them whatever they do.

Lathyrus interesting scenarios and ones that a teacher would possibly have to deal with. Of course they will do what they always do, that is act in the best interests of the child as they see it. That may change as the child grows and hopefully receives the professional help they need.

If a child (or adult) threatens suicide they need to be referred to MH agencies, as it is way beyond the remit or training of a teacher to deal with it. A teacher getting involved with something that is causing a child to threaten suicide should be disciplined and any SMT that expects that of staff should be referred to the union urgently to protect the teacher.

Also, nobody (adult or child) should be able to use threats of suicide to get their own way, however harsh that sounds. It is very unhealthy to allow that to happen, as it gives power to people who may well be abusing it, and can push genuinely suicidal people into a corner.

Well, if we’re into what aboutiferry, I can make up lots of scenarios.

What about if a child whose parents have insisted is transgender and should conform to their perception of norms for that gender tells the teacher they don’t want to do that.

What about if they tell the teacher they want to be their birth gender?

What about if they cry every day because they don’t know which gender to be today?

What about……..

Care to post some answers to my what about s?

Even if a child is threatening suicide because if bullying by a trans child?

FarNorth

I wasn't being facetious.
If all that has happened the school would have to go along with it.

School guidelines, however, suggest that the change of name, pronouns and facilities used can all happen during school time and without the parents' knowledge, if that's what the child wants.

Even if the parents are proclaiming a trans identity, especially if the child is very young, I believe it is harmful to the child to go along with it.

Even if the child has threatened suicide?

It's very difficult a school in America is facing legal action because they took a gender affirming stance without informing parents. We need to look at what the cass report is saying so we dont put schools in the firing line.

I wasn't being facetious.
If all that has happened the school would have to go along with it.

School guidelines, however, suggest that the change of name, pronouns and facilities used can all happen during school time and without the parents' knowledge, if that's what the child wants.

Even if the parents are proclaiming a trans identity, especially if the child is very young, I believe it is harmful to the child to go along with it.

Mollygo

FarNorth, A child can have the name they prefer, without any reference to their sex.
True.
When a child first comes to school, they have to provide a birth certificate. However, for as long as I’ve been teaching, which is a very long time, we have asked parents what they, or what the child prefers to be called.
Sometimes it’s a middle name, sometimes an abbreviation. Last year I taught both boys and girls called Alex and Tommy, and was introduced to the pronunciation and spelling of Ffion and Fionn.

Ah diminish it to just a name. Well if I have to explain it in such detail. The parents insist Alice is Alan, is to be identified as a boy, must be spoken about as "he" all paperwork is to use "he". They have taken the child to their GP and the child is currently awaiting an appointment at a gender clinic. The child has threatened suicide if this doesn't happen.
So what are teachers to do?
It's ridiculous to try diminishing this matter by using such terms as what if they want to be "princess Alice"? or we always use names that are preferred. But I do realise that the realities that children, parents and teachers are dealing with is a real problem, and it's much easier to be facetious or dismissive of the issue. Or to try attributing blame. Like it's all the fault of teachers/Stonewall/training etc. Because dealing with reality is much more complicated .

FarNorth, A child can have the name they prefer, without any reference to their sex.
True.
When a child first comes to school, they have to provide a birth certificate. However, for as long as I’ve been teaching, which is a very long time, we have asked parents what they, or what the child prefers to be called.
Sometimes it’s a middle name, sometimes an abbreviation. Last year I taught both boys and girls called Alex and Tommy, and was introduced to the pronunciation and spelling of Ffion and Fionn.

Glorianny

Lathyrus

Increasingly LGB are abandoning Stonewall as an organisation that represents them and creating new separate means of representation. Not without opposition from both Stonewall and trans, some of it violent.

At its inception it’s aims were clear. Equality not domination.

Evidence of any of this?

Do you mean evidence of violence towards those that prefer to belong to separate organisations concentrating on the issues that just affect their group.

As you’re often fond of saying, you have only to Google to find plenty of evidence of that.

And why would transactivists need to protest against separate organisations if these weren’t being set up by people who no longer believe they are represented by Stonewall. There would be no need to have separate organisations if LGB believed that Stonewall could represent them.

Do plenty of evidence there for those that are prepared to see it.

As for the way children are treated, are you suggesting teachers must ignore any trans children? What if the parents demand they treat Alice as Alan are teachers supposed to refuse?

I think there are no trans children, unless they are very mentally unwell and need help far beyond the scope of the school.

I do think schools should refuse to pretend that a child is the opposite sex.
A child can have the name they prefer, without any reference to their sex.

What if the parents demand the school should treat Alice as Princess Alice?
Should the school agree to that?

Evidence of teachers telling any child they are trans FarNorth?

I said telling them they may be trans.
By providing books such as 'I Am Jazz' and '10,000 Dresses'.
And by using stereotypes to explain what trans is, because they can have nothing else.

Fanshawe puts the issues very clearly. Interestingly, some of the phraseology ('the wrong kind of gay'), and the historical example of suffragettes as a comparator are strongly reminiscent of an ex-poster on here .

More interestingly though, he says what people have been saying for some time - that having achieved parity for LGB people they needed a focus, and rather than narrow the focus to things like getting Muslim parents onside for sex education in schools to include discussion of homosexuality, the new leaders broadened the focus to include trans tights. In so doing, they imposed their idea of TWAW on everyone else, despite the fact that this is not the view of a large number of existing members, thus taking the group in an entirely different direction. As he says, when you win a campaign, fractures start to show, as it was the shared focus (in this case legislative parity for LGB people) that holds a group together. Without that, they are just a group of people with no more in common than any random group.

Stonewall’s original co-founder, Simon Fanshawe, left them some time ago, because of the way they were changing its original purpose:

www.spiked-online.com/2022/05/17/does-stonewall-think-im-the-wrong-kind-of-gay/