Transphobic Bullying

Just as an aside Glorianny do you agree with VioletSky that the logical conclusion from the information available so far, is that trans women are women.?

If you do, can you explain your logical reasoning please?

For instance do you define women as something other than adult female humans?

Doodledog's post isn't saying that at all. Sometimes you can end up thinking you must writing in a different language, as how else can what you have put so clearly, be totally misinterpreted!!!

Doodledog

No. If you are suggesting that that hat is what I said, you should read my post, party the last part, as I predicted your response and thought I’d saved you the bother. Clearly you don’t actually read posts, but leap to unfounded conclusions though.

No Doodledog I think you fail to realise that exactly the same things you are saying about transpeople has been said at various times about other groups seeking equality.
If only they knew their place and kept quiet we would be nice to them!
I'm just taking the piss because I couldn't believe anyone would post such a thing.

No. If you are suggesting that that hat is what I said, you should read my post, party the last part, as I predicted your response and thought I’d saved you the bother. Clearly you don’t actually read posts, but leap to unfounded conclusions though.

Doodledog

FN I think that anyone reading this thread will see exactly which way respect has gone, and where it has been lacking.

Rosie, your pic shows a much more credible link between racism and trans issues than the usual victim-based faux-link that is so often trotted out posing as 'logic' ie racism was bad, and transphobia is bad, so criticising anything to do with trans issues is racism. I am still waiting for Glorianna to explain her slur that (in her opinion) I don't understand that racism is widespread because I questioned the constant references to a condition that affects 0.04% of children, but I doubt it will be forthcoming either. The MO is to post an insult, disappear and then make accusations of 'hounding' when asked for an explanation.

There is nothing in the agenda of those claiming to care about transpeople but posting such falsehoods that helps or encourages gender non conformity. Quite the reverse. (Glorianna)

Insults like the one embedded in the above quote will also be seen by readers for what they are. 'Agenda', 'claiming to care'. . . . . but' 'falsehoods'. How anyone can complain that it is the GC 'side' of the argument that resorts to insults and personal slurs when they post that sort of thing is beyond me.

It might have been an interesting point if it hadn't been smothered in personal digs suggesting that anyone who disagrees is doing so from a position of dishonesty, so I will address it as best I can:
It is the existence of the trans agenda that allows bullies to use it to bully. If that agenda hadn't made the news because of all the things that the GC object to - ie TRAs, 'self IDing men forcing themselves into women's spaces for nefarious purposes, children being encouraged to change their bodies etc, then transpeople would probably be living quietly, much as before, and there would be no trans bulling in schools.

This is not to say that anyone should ever not be who they need to be to appease bullies. It does, however show that Glorianna is putting the cart before the horse again.

Ah I see it's transpeople's fault children are being bullied. Why didn't I think of that.
I suppose black people are bullied because they have ideas above their station
And girls are bullied because they imagine they are equal to boys.
That explains it all. It's the fault of the person expecting equality if they get bullied Well who knew!

And maybe she does have some of those things and gets bullied for them too because the bullies have spotted a shy girl who's an easy target.

As we said at the start, the school needs to get a grip.

Btw, I'm waiting too - for the logical reasoning from VS as it could be very interesting .
But she seems to have cleared off without thinking it necessary to show us in a logical way, where we are going wrong.

FN I think that anyone reading this thread will see exactly which way respect has gone, and where it has been lacking.

Rosie, your pic shows a much more credible link between racism and trans issues than the usual victim-based faux-link that is so often trotted out posing as 'logic' ie racism was bad, and transphobia is bad, so criticising anything to do with trans issues is racism. I am still waiting for Glorianna to explain her slur that (in her opinion) I don't understand that racism is widespread because I questioned the constant references to a condition that affects 0.04% of children, but I doubt it will be forthcoming either. The MO is to post an insult, disappear and then make accusations of 'hounding' when asked for an explanation.

There is nothing in the agenda of those claiming to care about transpeople but posting such falsehoods that helps or encourages gender non conformity. Quite the reverse. (Glorianna)

Insults like the one embedded in the above quote will also be seen by readers for what they are. 'Agenda', 'claiming to care'. . . . . but' 'falsehoods'. How anyone can complain that it is the GC 'side' of the argument that resorts to insults and personal slurs when they post that sort of thing is beyond me.

It might have been an interesting point if it hadn't been smothered in personal digs suggesting that anyone who disagrees is doing so from a position of dishonesty, so I will address it as best I can:
It is the existence of the trans agenda that allows bullies to use it to bully. If that agenda hadn't made the news because of all the things that the GC object to - ie TRAs, 'self IDing men forcing themselves into women's spaces for nefarious purposes, children being encouraged to change their bodies etc, then transpeople would probably be living quietly, much as before, and there would be no trans bulling in schools.

This is not to say that anyone should ever not be who they need to be to appease bullies. It does, however show that Glorianna is putting the cart before the horse again.

Transphobic bullying is bullying someone because they are or you believe them to be trans.

Bullying with trans slurs is one form that bullying takes. The example given earlier, of a shy girl using a private cubicle and having hateful things said to her was not an example of transphobic bullying, unless she was known or thought to be trans, and there was no suggestion that she was.

It was an example of what's been said countless times in this thread, of the 'latest thing' that bullies can use to intimidate and hurt their victim.

If she didn't have ginger hair, wear glasses, was over weight, no good at sports or academic the use of trans slurs was unfortunately a useful 'weapon' to use against her.

Dress like a woman. Feel like a woman etc, all sexist and regressive.
Gender critical viewpoint, women and men can present how they like it has no impact on their sex.

We might both be waiting a long time Galaxy.

Could you point out where I said I wouldnt condemn bullying.

You can always tell a transwomen they are...taller, heavier, have masculine features, etc" something which is perpetually stated on these threads
Glorianny where have you seen that posted on here?
It’s usually posted, as by you here, as the description by which you identify people-either those words or a mention of deep voices and muscular build, the same sort of discriminatory words which were once levelled at lesbians.

The wish to transform their appearance, if what I’ve read from those advocating early transition is true, comes from unhappiness with their bodies not from people saying “you ought to get an operation to make you look like a boy”.
The suggestion that girls should use binders to hide their emerging busts, also adds to the pressure, but comes from the pro-transition group and other trans (as I know from experience) not from other non-trans girls.
Please define currently accepted norm and how it differs from the easily visible ‘norms’ of groups of girls in town this summer, with long or short hair, made up or bare faced, in dresses, or skirts, or trousers, or shorts or even jeans with more fraying than solid fabric.
What is your “currently accepted norm” the deviation from which would make a trans girl or woman immediately identifiable to you.

When they posted the photo of JKR s lunch, at which most people attending were gender non conforming, the response from many who were anti gender critical was but look they are all gender non conforming what are they complaining about. My best friend (butch lesbian) was told she must be trans by a transman. It's not gender critical people who have created the boxes in fact as many many gender critical people are lesbians they live being gender non conforming day in day out. They remain women that is our point.

Galaxy

We can generally know what sex someone is, pretending we cant wont help this situation. Pretending that Eddie Izzard is any different from Gordon Brown because of the way he presents is the problem.

That isn't a proper answer Galaxy and I think you realise that. Eddie by the way doesn't care what you call him/her. She's gone beyond that.
The problem of bullying of course is based on the fact that Eddie wouldn't be accepted now in schools and would be bullied just as he was when he was younger. I'm surprised you wouldn't condemn that.

We can generally know what sex someone is, pretending we cant wont help this situation. Pretending that Eddie Izzard is any different from Gordon Brown because of the way he presents is the problem.

Galaxy

Its not a slur to say short hair doesnt make you a man, it's not a slur to say gender is oppressive, etc.

Of course it isn't. However it is damaging to those who choose a look that is different from the currently accepted norms to say things like "You can always tell a transwomen they are...taller, heavier, have masculine features, etc" something which is perpetually stated on these threads. Because the people who will really suffer in schools for that belief are girls who choose to look a little different who will get called "trans" and be bullied into conforming, will try to hide their height, or ask for surgery to change their features. There is nothing in the agenda of those claiming to care about transpeople but posting such falsehoods that helps or encourages gender non conformity. Quite the reverse.

VioletSky, in case you're still here - anyone looking at this thread can see you asking for your beliefs to be respected and stating your belief that the logical conclusion from the information available so far, is that trans women are women.

They can also see that I have twice asked you to explain the logical reasoning for that conclusion and have had no response.

The only thing to be agreed on from all this, is that there is bullying in schools, some schools are worse than others, and that the "reasons" for bullying cover a wide range.

The answer is to ensure schools are robust in enforcing their own anti-bullying policies.

No child should be bullied - for any reason. One type of bullying is no better or worse than another.?

This says it for me.

Yes, all of that, plus the sexism inherent in the expectation that women should just move out of the way and let male bodies people into our spaces.

It's a shame but I hope future readers will see and understand the issues I have highlighted and transphobia's roots in sexism

I'd tend to think that trans activism is more rooted in sexism, given that it prioritises men over women especially with regard to transwomen.

To recognise that sex is immutable, and that women are constantly on the receiving end of discrimination and unfairness, is not and never will be transphobia.

OK end of thread for me

It's a shame but I hope future readers will see and understand the issues I have highlighted and transphobia's roots in sexism

Thank you to everyone who contributed, enjoy the rest of the weekend

The trans movement comes across as a men's right movement for a number of reasons. Mention the word trans and immediately the mantra is TWAW. Go on any social media, especially Twitter, and there will be unlimited opportunity to see 'transwomen' inviting you to 'suck or choke on my girl penis/dick' or worse. I can honestly say I've never seen a transman post 'go suck on my man vulva'.
In the sporting arena, transwomen take opportunities and medals from women, transmen are not taking sports scholarships or medals from men. The latest cry is that those few sports that are now saying transwomen may not compete in the female category are banning them from sport. Of course they aren't, it's absolute tosh, they just need to compete in their own sex category.
In business awards Pip/Philip Bunce (a part time TW) took a woman of the year award, I have yet to see a transman take a man of the year award.
In fiction there have been set up various awards for female writers. Transwomen have won those awards, I've yet to read of a transman winning any award.
Happy to be corrected with links to all the successful transmen taking awards in all these and other categories.

Oh dear, Doodledog I’ve now joined you in being told what I think by VS.
Fortunately her perception is not the truth, so I won’t lose any sleep over that.
VS to what awareness of your personal responsibility are you referring?
Your post makes so little sense that you’d need to clarify that.
You don’t need to do it now though. It’s far too late.

Mollygo

Yet it is transphobic bullying

I really can't engage with you any more it is honestly just a complete mind twist and I don't have a politer way to tell you that, it is just how it is going to have to be