First arrests under the New Police Act preventing freedom of speech

DaisyAnne

Summerlove

Coco51

I think a man was arrested for heckling Prince Andrew. Freedom of Speech is vital, but there is a time and a place, but this was neither.

Freedom of speech does not have a time and a place.

If it did, it wouldnt be freedom of speech.

This is an all or nothing situation. Not an "Only if I think its appropriate" one.

Of course, freedom of speech has to be judged on time, place and action too. I can imagine a case where this would be appropriate; if it incited the crowed for example.

I do not think holding up a blank piece of paper is the same, but it seems the Police see that balance too.

I'm sure Mosely's Black Shirts, back before and during the war, thought they should be allowed "freedom of speech" too. Surely you would not allow extremists to incite racial hatred.

In the middle, freedom of speech is easy to police. At the extremes it is another thing. Freedom of speech is not an absolute. It is limited by other people's freedoms - unless you live in a dictatorship.

The interesting thing about Mosely of course is that his views were held and supported by many in the establishment who thought his views and his right to express them was fine. It was the actions and disgust of working class people and socialists which put a stop to his racist views. The police would happily have let him continue stirring up racial unrest.
It seems that the police continue to decide what views may be expressed and what may not and perhaps not unexpectedly they still support the establishment.

The OP says the arrests where under the New Police Act preventing freedom of speech By this I assume WWM means the contentious new act passed in Parliament.

These people seem to have been arrested under the Breach of the Peace (Scotland) Act. Is this the same as the new English one? Of course, this is so far only alleged. No one has been found guilty so anything can yet happen.

25Avalon

In that case Juggernaut why do the police make sure to keep opposing fans away from each other? They certainly do in Bristol. It’s not the average fan but the dyed in the wool who are proprietary about their special areas. I wouldn’t fancy my chances wearing an opposing scarf in such areas.

???

In that case Juggernaut why do the police make sure to keep opposing fans away from each other? They certainly do in Bristol. It’s not the average fan but the dyed in the wool who are proprietary about their special areas. I wouldn’t fancy my chances wearing an opposing scarf in such areas.

growstuff

kjmpde

I have no issue with people not wanting the monarchy and protesting when Charles is going to the ceremony to be proclaimed King. What I think is inappropriate is the placards during the funeral procession. Protests all have the time and place . I think it may be why people are being arrested - to save a backlash which could become violent .

But should people be charged with behaviour which might make others angry? Which laws did these people actually break?

But should people be charged with behaviour which might make others angry?

Good point growstuff. In fact, a very good point because, well, don't most of us get angry with those who demonstrate their opinion if it opposes our own?

During the roll-out of the vaccination programme there were many demonstrations in various parts of the country (also in mainland Europe) opposing it. I think quite a few people were angered by some of the claims that were made, I was, but at the same time recognised that these people had the right to voice their concerns regardless of how outrageous I thought they were. They crossed the line when they physically tried to prevent medical staff going into a hospital. Although there are some who would say that was justified but I think not - when you start laying your hands on another person IMO it then becomes assault.

As for the man who shouted abuse at Andrew - was he right or wrong, was it the wrong time? We can argue all night but probably in the end will judge him by what we ourselves would or would not have done. I would not have done it. Partly because Andrew is not a convicted criminal and partly out of consideration for the remainder of the family who are, because of tradition, being forced to obey the rituals of grieving in public and, in spite of being a republican, I cannot think of anything worse than having the eyes of the nation watching your every move when you are undertaking what I feel is a very private and personal ritual. Others of course, will disagree.

These discussions make me think of a verse from The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam:

Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor and Saint, and heard great Argument
About it and about; but evermore
Came out by the same Door as in I went.

Breach of the Peace as a minor offence has been around for a long time - nothing to do with any new laws. I would imagine these people were arrested or removed for their own protection - a memorial parade for a much loved monarch is not the time to be protesting and its not likely to go down well with a crowd who have come to pay their respects to the Queen. Can people not have a little grace and leave it until next Tuesday onwards to start banging on about republics and unelected monarchs? We have no absolute right of free speech and never have had - its a fantasy.

Well said, Amalegra. You have put that so succinctly. I agree with you wholehearted. I find it sad and strange that voicing these very comments during the last couple of years would have caused a great outcry. People still do not accept the damage that has been done to our democracy. I despair for the country our children and grandchildren are going to inherit. When I said this to someone about grandchildren they said 'well they won't know any different'. So, everything our parents and the Queens generation fought for is worth nothing. It makes me feel the older generation have had the hard-fought freedoms so the next generation can go run!

I am so tired of 'dont say that or you might get hurt'. Do people understand how threatening they sound.

Well said Songstress60. Others may have mentioned the pandemic, if so, I apologise. I haven't read all comments... too depressing. But civil liberties have been slowly and quietly eroded for a long time. However, the so-called pandemic and the removal of people's freedom and liberty due to lockdowns has speeded up the process. Hopefully, people are starting to wake up as to what we have lost in the last 2 years. The future of personal liberty and freedom of speech is domed unless we wake up.

If a fan of either Merseyside team cannot get a ticket from their own club for a derby game, they will happily get one from the opposing club and mix with their 'oppos'!

As a scouser I can say this is untrue. Recently an Everton fan did make it there and it hit the news and local paper because it was so rare. And Liverpool fans were rather annoyed to say the least

extra.ie/2020/01/06/sport/soccernews/heres-why-this-everton-fan-was-welcomed-into-the-kop-for-merseyside-derby

GrannyGravy13

With free speech comes responsibility, it does not give one the right to insult or offend others.

Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.

Does that include all the people who have insulted and offended Harry and Meghan?

kjmpde

I have no issue with people not wanting the monarchy and protesting when Charles is going to the ceremony to be proclaimed King. What I think is inappropriate is the placards during the funeral procession. Protests all have the time and place . I think it may be why people are being arrested - to save a backlash which could become violent .

But should people be charged with behaviour which might make others angry? Which laws did these people actually break?

I agree with you Juggernaut. A few years ago, I was with a Liverpool fan amongst Everton supporters. We kept quiet until Liverpool scored, when we couldn't help but cheer. We got a few comments and some boos, but that was all and we watched the rest of the game with no problem.

I think he shouldn’t have been arrested-and neither should those who might well have shouted him down.
I have seen the silencing by violence of people exercising their right to speak the truth being approved of, because the freedom of speech wasn’t saying what they wanted.
Arrest is wrong, but not as dangerous as that.
I have seen the criticism of people using their freedom of speech to say they want to go and pay their respects by walking past the late Queen’s coffin, even 7 times.
If we are to have freedom of speech, then as some have already said, you cannot pick and choose what is said just to suit you.

Summerlove

Coco51

I think a man was arrested for heckling Prince Andrew. Freedom of Speech is vital, but there is a time and a place, but this was neither.

Freedom of speech does not have a time and a place.

If it did, it wouldnt be freedom of speech.

This is an all or nothing situation. Not an "Only if I think its appropriate" one.

Of course, freedom of speech has to be judged on time, place and action too. I can imagine a case where this would be appropriate; if it incited the crowed for example.

I do not think holding up a blank piece of paper is the same, but it seems the Police see that balance too.

I'm sure Mosely's Black Shirts, back before and during the war, thought they should be allowed "freedom of speech" too. Surely you would not allow extremists to incite racial hatred.

In the middle, freedom of speech is easy to police. At the extremes it is another thing. Freedom of speech is not an absolute. It is limited by other people's freedoms - unless you live in a dictatorship.

@25Avalon
When were you last at a Liverpool/Everton derby?
If an Everton fan in the Spion Kop at Anfield or a Liverpool fan at the Gwladys Street End at Goodison Park were to make comment 'dissing' the opposing team, he'd get a few mouthfuls of abuse, but that's all he'd get!
Perhaps you should make sure you know what you're talking about before spouting rubbish!
If a fan of either Merseyside team cannot get a ticket from their own club for a derby game, they will happily get one from the opposing club and mix with their 'oppos'!
My husband is a long term Everton Season Ticket Holder, an ex player is our son's Godfather (DM) and I have been to many matches. Maybe some football fans are yobs, but the rivalry between Everton and Liverpool is friendly. They may give one another a lot of 'verbal' but there has not been any violence between the fans for many, many years!
I'm not a scouser either, both my husband and I were raised in, and still live in Chester, but I can not ignore people who are not from the area uttering garbage about Everton or Liverpool fans!

GrammyGrammy

I'm describing the past- hundreds of years ago and what people felt was appropriate. These things are not dealt with in these ways nowadays. Nonetheless they are still wrong behaviours.

You appear to be mourning a past when people who voiced an opinion at a time you consider inappropriate could be killed - "and rightly so" I believe you said?

A sentiment you've extended to a poster on here who used a phrase you consider blasphemous:

So would you for your blasphemous mouth. And quite right too

In short - you approve of violence - even death - being meeted out to anyone who doesn't abide by your code.

Fortunately for us the common law offences of blasphemy and blasphemous libel were formally abolished in England and Wales in 2008.

You scare me far more than any individual making an ill-judged rant.

And Judgement Day is on its way

Proselytising too.

How would you know who might, though?

It’s a bit like you don’t let an Everton fan be in the Kop with Liverpool fans. One cheer for Everton or a boo against Liverpool and there would be a riot and he might even wind up dead. It is sometimes wise to keep silent.

If he was arrested because people might get violent then surely they are the ones to be arrested.

Because if you agree to that at some point it wont be you who is deciding what is appropriate, rather someone else will be deciding that your words are inappropriate.

Coco51

I think a man was arrested for heckling Prince Andrew. Freedom of Speech is vital, but there is a time and a place, but this was neither.

Freedom of speech does not have a time and a place.

If it did, it wouldnt be freedom of speech.

This is an all or nothing situation. Not an "Only if I think its appropriate" one.

The pandemic was the start of the erosion of free speech, and it will get worse. Look at all the people who were arrested for rightly protesting about lockdown and then when there was a protest about the murder of Sarah Everard there were huge fines sent out which I hope were NOT paid. It is now a police state which was engineered by the pandemic. Our freedom is gone and things will only deteriorate from now on.

Franbern I am an ardent royalist, but could not agree more about the utter waste of money spent on the flowers, not to mention the clearing up afterwards. I am quite sure that her late majesty, not to mention the Princess of Wales, would have preferred the money to go to deserving causes.

When the World Trade Center fell down someone said it was a "good day to bury bad news". Seems like this is a good time to "bury" the news of the danger to free speech which this new law implies.