So, who votes for a government that improves the lives of Bankers, and ensures the excessive profits of energy companies, but needs all the "levelling up" money to pay for the holes in Brexit?

Prentice

Germanshepherdsmum

I have already said on another thread that removing the cap on bankers’ bonuses is a good move.

The economy relies heavily on financial services and it’s vital that our banks are able to compete with, for instance, US banks which do not cap bonuses.

Furthermore, the tax paid by recipients of bonuses will be far higher than the banks would have paid had the money been retained.

I did not understand this situation t until I heard it explained clearly on radio 4 just yesterday.
It will continue to be misunderstood though and people will feel angry, even though it will not affect them at all.
after the Queen's funeral is over I really do think that Liz Truss and the Chancellor need to appear on tv and explain the financial package of help with energy, the banker's bonus issue and anything else that needs the public understanding.

Could you pass on the understanding you gained Prentice or tell us the programme/give a link. I think many will be interested to get an "outside" view.

Prentice

Redistribution how and where?
banks and companies should feel free to award what they like to employees.
it is an optics only matter. People feel aggrieved when others make large sums of cash.

No, that is not true. Some may, but people like me feel aggrieved when others pay comparatively little tax, so there is less to go into public services to help those who work equally hard but earn less. We are always being told that we cannot afford things like decent pensions, social care or the NHS, yet if we had a progressive tax system that was rigorously enforced there would be a lot more money to go around, and decent services could be made available to all.

It is unconscionable that people who work are forced onto Universal Credit and rely on food banks when others 'earn' more in a bonus payment than they do in years. It is shameful that many people are unable to afford decent care after a lifetime of paying into an NI system, and it is wrong that that system is capped so that high earners pay a lower percentage than those on lower incomes, and that some workers earn so little that they pay nothing at all, and are thus excluded from pension and sick pay contributions (as, of course, are their employers). Meanwhile, bonuses are not included in these contributions, as bankers earn far more than the maximum for NI payments, and many will employ accountants and FAs to ensure the their tax bills are kept as low as legally possible. That grieves me, as (IMO) it should grieve anyone who cares about social justice.

Well said Doodledog.

So the payment of excessive bonuses doesn't affect the general public in any way?

Perhaps, GSM and Prentice, you could tell me how banks actually make the profits from which they pay the bonuses.

Just where does that money come from?

I have used an accountant to deal with my tax affairs for many years Doodledog, paid a lot of tax and never indulged in any schemes to pay less. However, a significant increase in the higher rate of tax, or any other tax, would be damaging to the economy. We need to attract investment and the right people in order to grow. It has been demonstrated that increasing for instance income tax rates does not result in a corresponding increase in tax receipts because that simply encourages avoidance schemes.

I earned a lot as a City lawyer but didn’t find that unconscionable. I don’t use the word ‘earned’ lightly. I took nothing away from anyone but contributed, and continue to contribute, plenty in both taxes and charitable donations. Yes, workers in some, primarily public, sectors should be paid more but how is being an ‘unconscionably’ high earner in the private sector detrimental to them?

We need to attract investment and the right people in order to grow.

And how are businesses going to find investing in the UK attractive when a large section of the population can't afford to buy their products or services?

Or will they find the UK attractive because they can pay very low wages and sell their products abroad? Do you approve of a low wage economy?

Whether they find the UK attractive depends very much on what products or services they supply, and where they intend to make the supply.

No, I don’t approve of a low wage economy but that’s not what I have been talking about.

volver

I find it really quite disconcerting that people are so money-obsessed that they think the only principle driving others is financial jealousy.

The way you measure yourself is how you measure others, and how you assume others measure you. It's why you are surprised and even upset when someone behaves so far from how you would and why you believe others judge life by the same standard you do.

How a person judges you or suggests how someone else might be thinking gives a great deal of insight into how they think.

How else can you explain the focus on lifting the cap on bankers’ bonuses, which will cost the taxpayer - and non-taxpayer - absolutely nothing?

Germanshepherd'smum says : 'I earned a lot as a City lawyer but didn’t find that unconscionable. '

neither do I- why should anyone. What I do object to, very strongly, is how many (bravo if you did not) - find any loopholes to pay as little tax as possible, even worse avoid as much tax as they can, or hide their profits abroad to pay no tax in UK (as many in the Government- as well as the Cons party. Which is what Brexit was all about btw).

Whether they find the UK attractive depends very much on what products or services they supply, and where they intend to make the supply.

So I refer you to the questions you haven't answered.

Where is the attractive market for this investment?

Also to the unanswered question about where the banks get their profits from.

No tax avoidance here fleurpepper. Not a penny.

Germanshepherdsmum

How else can you explain the focus on lifting the cap on bankers’ bonuses, which will cost the taxpayer - and non-taxpayer - absolutely nothing?

Try again.

Where do the banks get their profits from?

From the Tax Justice Network

'This loose offshore interest group also includes Jacob Rees-Mogg, an upper-class pro-Brexit politician who has been co-owner of a major offshore investment firm; Richard Tice, leader of the Brexit Party whose family has deep offshore links, and a few others.

These people, and the often mysterious money behind them, were a significant factor behind Brexit: it is quite easy to argue, given the narrowness of the vote, that their influence flipped the vote from Remain to Leave.

If there is an ideology for these hardliners, it was perhaps first espoused by Rees-Mogg’s father William, author of a book called The Sovereign Individual, a favourite of Silicon Valley libertarian times. The book foretold ever greater difficulties financing welfare states as mobile capital increasingly escaped the grubby bonds of the democratic state. Subscribing to the fictional Littlefinger’s “Chaos is a Ladder” theory of getting rich, the book urged the talented, privileged “sovereign individual” to thrive by embracing the offshore mystic, by cheerleading chaos, and by advancing the offshore project itself.'

Maizie - take car manufacturers for instance - products sold here and overseas.
And banks make their money from all manner of trading and commercial loan arrangements. It is investment banking, not retail banking, which produces the big profits.

Germanshepherdsmum

Whether they find the UK attractive depends very much on what products or services they supply, and where they intend to make the supply.

No, I don’t approve of a low wage economy but that’s not what I have been talking about.

Widening inequality can affect both growth and stability. It concentrates political power and decision-making in the hands of a few. It can lead to poor use of human resources and can cause investment-reducing political and economic instability. The idea that a small group, getting ever more unequal in reward will create additional greater good than harm with each increase in their reward, is, at the very least, ill thought through.

I would think most people would understand that there is a point where widening inequality will cause the risk of a crisis or possibly a revolt. I suggest if being ever richer is the only guide someone has, they look to Russia, France, etc.,

Germanshepherdsmum

Maizie - take car manufacturers for instance - products sold here and overseas.
And banks make their money from all manner of trading and commercial loan arrangements. It is investment banking, not retail banking, which produces the big profits.

OK

How many people in the UK in the middle of a financial crisis are going to buy new cars? And what export markets do we have that would attract that car maker? Especially now we've cut our noses off to disengage from the enormous market on or doorstep?

Those commercial loans. Where are the companies who take them on going to get the money to repay them with?

Retail banks may not be 'so' profitable, but where is the money to repay £1,5 trillion of mortgage debt + interest coming from?

This should be a success, regarding vehicle sales home and abroad

Germanshepherdsmum

Maizie - take car manufacturers for instance - products sold here and overseas.
And banks make their money from all manner of trading and commercial loan arrangements. It is investment banking, not retail banking, which produces the big profits.

How much of that profit finds its way into the pockets of the man or woman in the street?

Germanshepherdsmum

How else can you explain the focus on lifting the cap on bankers’ bonuses, which will cost the taxpayer - and non-taxpayer - absolutely nothing?

Don't be silly! Do you think bankers create extra wealth? It's wealth which is siphoned out of the country's economy.

Germanshepherdsmum

Whether they find the UK attractive depends very much on what products or services they supply, and where they intend to make the supply.

No, I don’t approve of a low wage economy but that’s not what I have been talking about.

So you approve of the UK becoming like many developing countries? Companies are foreign-owned, use cheap local labour and sell the goods abroad.

Germanshepherdsmum

How does removing the cap on bankers’ bonuses result in anyone ‘having more at the price of others having little or none’, Daisy?

Are you kidding or just being obtuse?

Well the bank could just pay a higher salary and the employees would get a higher bonus.

vegansrock

Well the bank could just pay a higher salary and the employees would get a higher bonus.

So, is that what you would like them to do vegansrock?

How much of that profit finds its way into the pockets of the man or woman in the street?

A more pertinent question, growstuff and one that I was trying to tease out the answer to, is:

'How much of that profit came out of the pocket of the man in the street?'