US & UK are poor societies with some very rich people.

DaisyAnne

GrannyGravy13

Sorry DaisyAnne to disagree, I know numerous people who are on UC both young and old. I am aware of their day to day struggles.

I have always advocated for a safety net for all who find themselves in the position to need one.

What I am not convinced about is the correlation between taxes and benefits as we are repeatedly told that taxation does not fund government spending.

I would be happy to pay 1 - 5% more in personal tax on the basis that it would go towards helping the poorest in our society, but for SME’s this is not the time to increase corporation tax.

I understand that GrannyGravy and we have much to learn from your knowledge of current business.

What I cannot understand are the put downs and the name calling. I doubt I ever will. Some people seem to use it as a crutch to build their own self esteem. It seems to me just the same as the client journalists who repeat the "state's" brainwashing.

I do not go down the name calling road, (I am too much of a people pleaser in RL)

I have said in another thread that I am becoming more aware of the gotcha journalism which appears to be growing daily. I assume it is to widen the divide and start othering , we only have to look at Leicester and Birmingham over the last few days, cultural as well as political unrest does not bode well for the future.

I have no idea what the solution is, I doubt if there is a quick fix.

I do know that I am politically homeless at the moment, not sure that is going to change any time soon.

GrannyGravy13

Sorry DaisyAnne to disagree, I know numerous people who are on UC both young and old. I am aware of their day to day struggles.

I have always advocated for a safety net for all who find themselves in the position to need one.

What I am not convinced about is the correlation between taxes and benefits as we are repeatedly told that taxation does not fund government spending.

I would be happy to pay 1 - 5% more in personal tax on the basis that it would go towards helping the poorest in our society, but for SME’s this is not the time to increase corporation tax.

I understand that GrannyGravy and we have much to learn from your knowledge of current business.

What I cannot understand are the put downs and the name calling. I doubt I ever will. Some people seem to use it as a crutch to build their own self esteem. It seems to me just the same as the client journalists who repeat the "state's" brainwashing.

GrannyGravy13

Sorry DaisyAnne to disagree, I know numerous people who are on UC both young and old. I am aware of their day to day struggles.

I have always advocated for a safety net for all who find themselves in the position to need one.

What I am not convinced about is the correlation between taxes and benefits as we are repeatedly told that taxation does not fund government spending.

I would be happy to pay 1 - 5% more in personal tax on the basis that it would go towards helping the poorest in our society, but for SME’s this is not the time to increase corporation tax.

Indeed.

Sorry DaisyAnne to disagree, I know numerous people who are on UC both young and old. I am aware of their day to day struggles.

I have always advocated for a safety net for all who find themselves in the position to need one.

What I am not convinced about is the correlation between taxes and benefits as we are repeatedly told that taxation does not fund government spending.

I would be happy to pay 1 - 5% more in personal tax on the basis that it would go towards helping the poorest in our society, but for SME’s this is not the time to increase corporation tax.

Katie59

I’m not trying to run the UK down but we are not good.
NoblesseOblige May have been living in one of the Scandinavian countries that are certainly better, however we travelled through France, Germany, Austria and Poland last year, UK does not compare well we are falling behind

This isn't the first time it's happened Katie. I remember visiting my brother in Germany in the very late 70s early 80s and was shocked when we landed back home. That tired and uncared for look was everywhere and nowhere in Germany did I see the obviously working, dressed so poorly.

I feel you simply cannot trust the Conservatives with our economy.

Business closures and redundancies would only increase if the rate of corporation tax were increased.

Of course some people have not worked hard - see the current thread on lack of NI contributions- and some have lived beyond their means. But one can’t generalise as to reasons for lack of money. Everybody’s story is different.

GrannyGravy13

Gabrielle56 I agree with your post 09.05.10

You would GrannyGravy and Gabrielle. Reading Gabrielle's post, and GrannyGravy's agreement, it sounds as if you feel comfortably off, and mix with those in the same position. I cannot imagine either of you mixing with anyone who has to ask the state for help as you would be telling them they hadn't worked hard enough and had lived beyond their means.

Maybe neither of you has younger family members, I don't know. But I am hearing the long-expected business closures coming at speed now and the talk of companies my friends ACs and mine work for announcing the process for redundancies. If this happens to one of yours, I hope they don't expect the government to provide while they are in this situation. In a small state economy, we have all learned to see them as people who hadn't worked hard enough and/or had lived beyond their means. It's people like you would spread these tarrididles.

Neatly put Gabrielle56.
Yes I am concerned about the levels of poverty here-noticeable particularly during and since lockdown.
Re comparisons with Europe, it must depend on which parts of Europe you travelled through or where you lived. In France this summer, the newspapers were full of concerns about the health service over there, the shortage of emergency staff and the shortage of doctors and the beggars in the street far outweighed any I’ve seen here, though to be fair, I don't live in a big city.
My brother who recently visited from Germany to be part of the funeral historic events, talked about about increasing financial problems for the poorer in Germany-unusual for him as he usually sings the praises of all things German.

Gabrielle56

Corporation tax is 19% the lowest in Europe. Germany have a rate of around 30% . We need this tax to fund infrastructure and it's low rate has resulted in no spending on the things we need most! Not everyone who runs a business pays this tax there are thresholds to qualify. A decent accountant will be able to substantially reduce liability anyway .the big guzzler of profits are the business rates !

I agree with you again.

I am beginning to be a tad confused regarding tax and government expenditure. I get that the U.K. can issue money as and when, but why do all journalist’s and MPs of all parties bang on that we need tax to fund government spending?

If I was a conspiracy theorist I could be suspicious that it is an overall decision to keep the populace in its place?

Corporation tax is 19% the lowest in Europe. Germany have a rate of around 30% . We need this tax to fund infrastructure and it's low rate has resulted in no spending on the things we need most! Not everyone who runs a business pays this tax there are thresholds to qualify. A decent accountant will be able to substantially reduce liability anyway .the big guzzler of profits are the business rates !

Gabrielle56 I agree with your post 09.05.10

Katie59

I’m not trying to run the UK down but we are not good.
NoblesseOblige May have been living in one of the Scandinavian countries that are certainly better, however we travelled through France, Germany, Austria and Poland last year, UK does not compare well we are falling behind

How are we "falling behind"? What areas are you travelling through in UK to decide so?

I'd say that the majority of people have a decent living standard in UK. Some are hard up, some are on the bones of their ar**s.others are very comfortable and a few stinking rich. In UK it appears to be a case of what you choose to do with your resources for the majority.lots live a lifestyle way beyond their means and have a dillusional insistence that they 'deserve' to 'have it all' even if they haven't worked hard for 'it' . A great many work so hard just to tread water,but we have shops full of food, free at source medical care and a social fund available (albeit a confusing one to access!) Should the worst happen.anyone who's lived in a country where there's no healthcare for the less well off/shops almost devoid of any decent food/housing akin to post-blitz conditions with no access to materials to address repairs, will think that the term 'poor' is redundant in UK.its all relative. I've been in real dire straits where we very nearly lost our home and all else too in the80s when everyone else was singing "loadsamoney" yet now we have a comfortable retirement not rich, not poor by any means, but we choose carefully what we 'blow' our funds on and it ain't foreign holidays, meals out, designer gear, £1000 phones or chuck away outfits from Primuck!! There will always be those needing social and state help and we must ALWAYS provide that at all costs, but to say we're generally poor is utter bilge.

Can you say why this has happened?

Tax, GrannyGravy

I'm glad we live in a country with a rich tradition of charity: however there is no bout that the rich are getting richer, and the poor, poorer, and that at least apparently, "levelling up" has been quietly dropped for "trickling down" (which I believe has been proven not to work, shall be pleasantly surprised it it does.

So for me its not an either/or charity or proper distribution of income and meeting basic needs. The bits can sit aside one another.

but I'll give you a clear and real local example of the charity/meeting needs bit.

there was a truly lovely big charity venture for anyone who felt or was marginalised or simply lonely. A drop in cafe long opening hours and cheap. Free groups of various activities run. 9 workers paid, many unpaid volunteers, inner city striation.

The have had to turn themselves into an extended food and advice space. They have lost 7 workers. there can be no groups, as its a food bank, and tho the cafe is open, its by referral only, and it now has a CAB also referral only. Its not for the lonely/isolated/marginalised/ a happy place anymore, its plugging the gaps in social services.

I’m not trying to run the UK down but we are not good.
NoblesseOblige May have been living in one of the Scandinavian countries that are certainly better, however we travelled through France, Germany, Austria and Poland last year, UK does not compare well we are falling behind

A VAT registered business is merely collecting VAT on behalf of the govt. It is not actually their money. The output tax is a tax charged to the customer which is then paid over to HMRC, subject to a deduction for any input tax paid by the business.

Best explanation. The businesses do the work of collection.

Hello all. New to Gransnet site and posting.

I am British and moved back to the UK a few months ago from Europe. I had been away for 15 yrs, with intermittent visits back to see family and friends, which is very different from living in a place. Since moving back, I have been shocked by how ‘poor’ the UK seems to have become in its daily standard of living compared with life in Europe. The gap there between rich/poor felt much smaller, headline tax levels were higher but in return we all felt bought into the fabulous levels of public services and general attractiveness of everything, low uni fees for students to train up our next generation of doctors, engineers and so on. Everything here in the UK just looks and feels on its last legs, uncared for, and shabby to be frank. I can only comment having experienced both places. One situation encapsulates it for me and that’s the terrible situation in the UK regards finding a dentist (basically DH and I cannot). In Europe, we paid roughly EUR 100 every year for family of four (medical insurance) and for that went to any doctor or dentist we wanted, providing levels of service that would be considered private standard here, we paid eg EUR20 for a doctor appointment and were then reimbursed 80% of the costs. I found it a great system and received wonderful medical care. Here, I cannot even find a dentist accepting new patients!! In Europe we could pick and choose whoever we wanted and in fact had one 100m from where we lived.

I’m shocked at the poor quality of life here and angered by how it’s got like this. I feel the British people should demand better. I feel the UK is a nice place if you are v moneyed but hard if not, whereas in Europe it feels better for more people. Don’t get me wrong there are some wonderful aspects to the UK and we moved back for some positive reasons that we are glad of. But having been fortunate to travel and live overseas extensively, I now believe there are countries out there that have overtaken Britain in the quality of life stakes and it is slipping behind. We advise our DC to get out and see the world and share our views on what’s better/worse about different countries and systems. I don’t see the next few years being easy for Britain and I think past policy decisions are going to come
back with a bite.

I fully recognise the points made in the FT article the OP linked to regarding how UK and US societies seem poor overall but with some v rich people in. From my experience it feels better living in more equal societies.

^ There is a poster who has stated that income tax is not used for government spending. I don't understand this statement and would be most grateful for an explanation.^

That's me, Rosina.

There is one fact you have to take on board to start to find an answer to this question and that is that all our money is issued by the state. The article growstuff linked to tells you more about money, the UK's money, and how it is issued into the economy. The state is the only entity that can create UK £s sterling. There is no theoretical limit (though there are practical limits) on how much it can create. Anyone else who tried to create out money would be sent to prison for forgery.

You cannot buy anything in the UK with any other country's currency. If you bring back foreign currency from a holiday abroad you have to change it back into sterling before you can use it in the UK.

This leads to a very simple question. If the state is the sole creator'and issuer of our currency why does it need to get some back from us in order to pay for anything?

Perhaps people might like to think about that.

I know that you didn't mention profits. I'm just trying to point out in simple language that VAT is not a cost of the company.
by including VAT payments in your answer is misleading.
WM's answer is more comprehensive than mine and maybe more understandable.

Dinahmo

My point being that it is not a cost of the company and doesn't affect its profits. GG's post implies that it does and is therefore misleading.

My post pointed out all taxes paid by companies, I didn’t mention profit at all.

My point being that it is not a cost of the company and doesn't affect its profits. GG's post implies that it does and is therefore misleading.

Yes the supplier of goods or services are acting as a tax collector , the money collected never belongs to that company, but of course they can offset some of the payment by vat incurred on their purchases associated with those supplies.

Dinahmo

GrannyGravy13

Katie59

It’s just you hear about companies paying too much tax - but they don’t pay much at all.

As well as 19% corporation tax, VAT at 20%, Employer NI contributions for each employee on PAYE who pays NI along with business rates.

I think you are mistaken if you think SME’s do not pay ^much at all^

A VAT registered business is merely collecting VAT on behalf of the govt. It is not actually their money. The output tax is a tax charged to the customer which is then paid over to HMRC, subject to a deduction for any input tax paid by the business. I'm sure that you know this.

Yes Dinahmo

GrannyGravy13

Katie59

It’s just you hear about companies paying too much tax - but they don’t pay much at all.

As well as 19% corporation tax, VAT at 20%, Employer NI contributions for each employee on PAYE who pays NI along with business rates.

I think you are mistaken if you think SME’s do not pay ^much at all^

A VAT registered business is merely collecting VAT on behalf of the govt. It is not actually their money. The output tax is a tax charged to the customer which is then paid over to HMRC, subject to a deduction for any input tax paid by the business. I'm sure that you know this.