US & UK are poor societies with some very rich people.

But do we want an economy that grows? Surely we want an economy that stabilises and doesn't draw on more and more resources from other countries and cause climate change.

Should the answer to our local problems should not be passed on to countries poorer than us.

That’s a rather obscure reply Maizie. For bears of little brain, of which I am one when it comes to such matters, a clear explanation as to how this could be funded without increased taxation would be very helpful.

M0nica

Maizie you have yet to show how soaking the rich will provide all the extra money needed.

And to quote an old northern saying ^You get owt for nowt', So how can we pour more money into the NHS, Education, better and more housing, etc etc, not to mention better benefits without finding the money to do so from somewhere?

I haven't said a bl88dy word about soaking the rich.

The state, via the Bank of England, is the issuer of money. Banks issue new money for lending under licence from the BoE. The state doesn't rely on taxation to fund anything.

Try reading this:

www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/public-purpose/sites/bartlett_public_purpose/files/the_self-financing_state_an_institutional_analysis_of_government_expenditure_revenue_collection_and_debt_issuance_operations_in_the_united_kingdom.pdf

And this:

www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/quarterly-bulletin/2014/quarterly-bulletin-2014-q1.pdf

First two articles.

Germanshepherdsmum

That’s a rather obscure reply Maizie. For bears of little brain, of which I am one when it comes to such matters, a clear explanation as to how this could be funded without increased taxation would be very helpful.

I keep telling you that taxation doesn't fund spending.

Try reading the two links I've posted in my previous post.

Without having to read the links, please humour me as my time is limited, can you please tell me how the proposed expenditure can be funded without any increase in taxation?

Maizie we have had this argument before. If you increase the amount of money you print without an increase in national assets, you end up with inflation, trade deficits and all the symptoms of a collapsed state. including poverty for most people. well, if we are all equally poor, that is one way of solving the problem, but not one to be recommended.

M0nica

But do we want an economy that grows? Surely we want an economy that stabilises and doesn't draw on more and more resources from other countries and cause climate change.

Should the answer to our local problems should not be passed on to countries poorer than us.

I don't see any reason why we can't work within sustainable growth.

ideasforus.org/sustainability-and-5-examples-of-how-it-helps-economic-growth/

Germanshepherdsmum

Without having to read the links, please humour me as my time is limited, can you please tell me how the proposed expenditure can be funded without any increase in taxation?

Without reading the links you will not understand where I am coming from.

I don't think that I could precis an academic research paper and two long articles in a way that would satisfy you (or MOnica)

Impasse.

Well neither of us CBA. So be it. Rather a shame though, given your constant insistence that taxation doesn’t fund expenditure. So be it. I’m none the wiser as to the purpose of taxation. I just pay up, always have, always will.

If you increase the amount of money you print without an increase in national assets, you end up with inflation, trade deficits and all the symptoms of a collapsed state.

What 'national assets' are you thinking of? A properly funded and effective NHS? A world class system of education and training which sustains top level research and innovation, and a skilled workforce? An integrated transport system that serves both the public and industry? Renewable energy ? Water providers that don't discharge enormous amounts of raw sewage into our rivers and seas?

Or do you have something else in mind?

As for inflation, governments have created £billions in completely new money over the last decade and a half. Has it been inflationary?

In the three cases of hyperinflation cuased by 'printing money' commonly cited, Weimar Germany, Zimbabwe and Venzuela the causes have been corruption, dislocation of the 'normal' domestic economy, failure to tax, disruption of trade...

Do any of these, apart from the last because of Brexit, apply to the UK?

What is the prime cause of our current inflation? It certainly isn't an over supply of money...

GDP/GNP Maizie, which ever you prefer, both defined as follows
Gross domestic product (GDP) is the value of the finished domestic goods and services produced within a nation's borders.
Gross national product (GNP) is the value of all finished goods and services owned by a country's citizens, whether or not those goods are produced in that country.

A last link for you, Monica

clintballinger.com/2021/01/12/the-myth-of-hyperinflation/

Since the inflation would be caused by the government that decided to print lots of money on the delusion it would buy it out of trouble, it seems that the conditions mentioned in your link would apply.
There are differences in details and emphases, but the basic story of outside coercion, losing a war/civil war, internal corruption, incompetent/bad economic education/bad policies on banking/currency, elite minorities clinging to power, foreign denominated debt, collapse in real production etc. are the same in Weimar and Venezuela as in Zimbabwe. As always, the “printing” is the result, not the cause.

And so it would be in the UK. The phrase bad economic education/bad policies on banking/currency, is up their with all the other causes

Still waiting for a simple explanation as to how taxation doesn’t fund expenditure Maisie. A very simple explanation of your own, not a link. I’m very puzzled about where all the income from various taxes goes, if none of it funds expenditure.

Not holding my breath …

Norah Some of the wealthy people that you quoted have a lot of expertise at their disposal to help them hold onto their assets. The following is a link to an article written following the death of the 6th Duke of Westminster back in 2016. Most of the Grosvenor family assets are held in a number of trusts.
The personal assets of the 6th duke (£600 million) were inherited by his wife and so exempt from taxation although her children will have to pay tax when they inherit, unless yet another trust is formed. If that happened there would be tax to pay but not as much as would be payable under the normal IHT rules

www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/07/duke-of-westminster-offshore-firms-wealth-paradise-papers

Cue a flood of angry outbursts …

Germanshepherdsmum

Still waiting for a simple explanation as to how taxation doesn’t fund expenditure Maisie. A very simple explanation of your own, not a link. I’m very puzzled about where all the income from various taxes goes, if none of it funds expenditure.

Try doing GCSE Economics! It's basic stuff and you might even understand.

I did A level economics actually. I understand more than you obviously think. However I want to hear what Maizie has to say, thank you,

M0nica

Since the inflation would be caused by the government that decided to print lots of money on the delusion it would buy it out of trouble, it seems that the conditions mentioned in your link would apply.
There are differences in details and emphases, but the basic story of outside coercion, losing a war/civil war, internal corruption, incompetent/bad economic education/bad policies on banking/currency, elite minorities clinging to power, foreign denominated debt, collapse in real production etc. are the same in Weimar and Venezuela as in Zimbabwe. As always, the “printing” is the result, not the cause.

And so it would be in the UK. The phrase bad economic education/bad policies on banking/currency, is up their with all the other causes

I repeat. Over the past decade and a half governments have 'printed' some £400billion+ of new money.

Commercial banks do it every day when they make a loan (source, the BoE quarterly bulletin I linked to which everyone is determined not to read)

Do we have hyperinflation?

Cherrypicking one of multiple causes of hyperinflation doesn't have quite the 'gotcha' effect you seem to think it has.

And one cause the author seems to have missed is failure to tax.

Germanshepherdsmum

I did A level economics actually. I understand more than you obviously think. However I want to hear what Maizie has to say, thank you,

Given the time you'll have to wait you might just as well read the academic paper I linked to.

P.S Mr Maizie has a degree in economics and he has no idea about the source of government money...

Germanshepherdsmum

I did A level economics actually. I understand more than you obviously think. However I want to hear what Maizie has to say, thank you,

In that case, you should know perfectly well that taxation doesn't fund government spending and that spending precedes any taxation.

Both my children did economics A level and I still have their textbooks and the process is explained quite clearly in the sections on macro-economics. As they both went on to university and studied economics as part of their degrees, this message was reinforced.

I still maintain that the UK is a rich country. That is one of the reasons people want to live there. Some must have led very sheltered lives if they think they can even compare it with so called 3rd world countries. Actually, I find that quite offensive. Some of you don't know what you've got.

Nanna yes We and other western countries are rich and having lived in both 3rd and rich countries I am perfectly able to compare life between the two. The main reason for coming here is they are people living under brutal regimes, you have no rights whatsoever, men are forced into the army to act against there own, striking women from thee factories, rounded up and taken by lorries back to the factories to work, very young children working on the salt fields, often naked,. People know it’s not perfect in our countries, the weather for starters but as I was told we have human rights, no talk of you have money and other riches. Just human rights. So Nanna I could go on but I would suggest that it is you that has lead a sheltered and narrow life, certainly not me