Another Benefit of Brexit?

Remember all those, not so long ago?

Complete b*ll*cks indeed

fb.watch/fIvwUQ7SfB/

I find it ironic that I have recently seen Leave voters on this forum applauding Macron's idea of a 'Political Club' of European nations...

Not me.

I agree with you too MaisieD
Even a supposedly rational decision is sealed by the way we feel.

Sadly I have to agree with you, NotSpaghetti.

My vote to remain in the EU in 1975 also was underlaid by emotional reasons. But the reverse of those you cite for the Leave voters. I felt very strongly that we were hovering on the edge of Europe, and quite detached from it, but, as a European nation, we should be much more part of the continent. I also felt that it was a huge step towards doing away with the enmity between European nations which has existed for centuries. Particularly the enmity felt towards those nations we had fought against in two World Wars.

Sadly, despite our position at the 'Top Table' in Europe and our big influence on the creation of EU law and regulations, it has become notably apparent that that enmity still exists and it was well exploited by the leaders of the Leave campaigns.

It really saddens me.

I find it ironic that I have recently seen Leave voters on this forum applauding Macron's idea of a 'Political Club' of European nations...

Urmstongran

Yes, I understand you NotSpaghetti about part time working. Our eldest daughter who works as a speech & language therapist in Yorkshire works a 4 day week for the NHS. I think my point was more that if 2/3 of trainee doctors say they plan to do similar, or less, we need to train more up to take up the slack. We don’t have enough doctors in primary health care nowadays as it is.

And to a large extent I agree with your husband about the Brexit vote. It was visceral. It’s about independence, making our own laws to suit our own citizens. Having autonomy.

Just ask Nicola Sturgeon!

Yes, calculations about the number of doctors traines never accounted for

a) young women who mostly became GPs rather than hospital Consultants/spécialists, who have traditionally worked part time for generations

b) all those who are leaving the NHS to either work privately, or who have moved abroad for better conditions and pay

c) all those new doctors who have re-assessed their lives and do not wish to work themselves into burn out, health issues and an early grave, like their seniors did.

The shortfall would take 10 years to be made up- even if conditions were ideal. As such, young people are not going into medicine, and those who do, as said, intend to work part-time or leave for sunnier and more lucrative shores.

I see that about needing more doctors Urmstongran but I think you have it wrong about the EU - and so does Nicola Sturgeon I think - as, in actuality we have been making our own laws to suit our own citizens.

My point was that people felt we weren't independent anymore, and that yes, it was a visceral/emotional thing rather than a logical one.

I think we are entitled to vote according to how we feel though... unfortunately

Yes, I understand you NotSpaghetti about part time working. Our eldest daughter who works as a speech & language therapist in Yorkshire works a 4 day week for the NHS. I think my point was more that if 2/3 of trainee doctors say they plan to do similar, or less, we need to train more up to take up the slack. We don’t have enough doctors in primary health care nowadays as it is.

And to a large extent I agree with your husband about the Brexit vote. It was visceral. It’s about independence, making our own laws to suit our own citizens. Having autonomy.

Just ask Nicola Sturgeon!

Thank you GrannyGravy13
My husband and I have been trying to understand why people voted this way.
It still makes no logical sense to me but I can see how it may make emotional sense to many.

...and yes, you are right. Cameron should have had set things up better for leaving the EU in that eventually and not agreed to a "first past the post" situation in a referendum.

NotSpaghetti a truly eloquent post ?

My husband feels, and I tend to agree with him is that Brexit never really was an intellectual decision it was visceral and emotional. People's feelings were not fully taken into account and the closer the links to Europe the less important, less "special" (for want of a better word) many people inevitably felt.

It was a sense of self-pride that the leave vote spoke to. It was the idea of being alive and powerful. It was a vote about who we are and a sense of "home".

For some of us, home is simply where we make it. My ties to the UK are influenced by having lived abroad. I don't feel things were imposed by an outside agency but that EU memership was simply a partnership for mutual benefit.

I was not belittled by membership.

Most people who voted leave will not change what speaks to their heart as a truth, however painful the practicalities.

If you have lived abroad (even happily, like me) you will perhaps know the occasional quiet longing for the familiar. I love the voices of my hometown if I ever return. It's a profound sense of belonging.
I have come to see Brexit like this.
A sense of home.

Urmstongran - lots of young professionals are working part time, not just doctors. Part time may just be 4½ days of course.
I would personally like to see others in less prestigious jobs being able to manage financially on a shorter working week. I think heath and life quality would be massively improved.

My young professional daughter is working 4 days and last year worked 3 ½.
The younger generation can see what "burn-out" looks like and don't aspire to it.

They are doing things Casdon of course they are. Something needs to be done urgently now to kickstart our moribund economy. But WW’s statements were OTT and diminished her argument.

“Civilising influence of the EU”?
Haha haha!

Does she think we are barbarians without their ‘benign’ influence? Do me a favour.

Urmstongran

Hyperbolic nonsense.

What do you mean, aren’t they going to do it after all?

I still don’t understand how from the outset Liz Truss was named as a winner despite not doing well in the initial knockout selections.

Hyperbolic nonsense.

All the civilising influence of the EU is being totally abandoned by a hard right cabal headed by their puppet Truss.

Human Rights are being abandoned

Animal rights are being abandoned

Not a single mandate for any of this.

It is a government of illegitimacy.

It may be possible to identify some advantages of Brexit here and there (aside from the ridiculous sovereignty argument) but overall it is a disaster from which we shall take generations to recover. I recall that nice Mr Rees-Mogg said the benefits of Brexit would not be felt for 50 years. He didn't seem to discover any when he was Minister for Brexit Opportunities. He did, however, move his investment office to Dublin to stay in the single market. Just business, of course.

Just leaving this here for those who assert that our declining export performance is caused by covid and not related to Brexit.

Note how EU exports have recovered strongly. I wonder why the UK is in the doldrums.

Anyone got any idea why

'The Treasury is refusing to publish a forecast of the UK's economic outlook alongside this Friday's mini-Budget.'

How many tonnes of vegetables have rotted in UK fields since Brexit as farmers can't get the seasonal workers to harvest them?

How many animals have been slaughtered and disposed of as useless because we cannot get the workers to process them?

How many tonnes of food are thrown away by UK households each year?

The evil EU isn't the only culprit, MerylS

Nothing changes but this is beyond obscene ?

153 million tonnes of food wasted per year.

www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/20/eu-wastes-153m-tonnes-of-food-a-year-much-more-than-it-imports-says-report

vegansrock

So some businesses which rely largely on an internal market are doing ok, fine, and not because of any advantages of Brexit. If you compare the current state of U.K. growth/ productivity/ the value of the £ - all on a downward slide compared with closest competitors. This cannot be denied. And there is a pharmaceuticals shortage of many medicines. Anecdotal evidence is not data.

Those medicines rpoduced abroad, when there is a shortage, will be sold to partners and to those with a high currency. And if sold to the UK, will cost so so much more due to very low value of the Pound. Same for essential chemicals, for waer purification for instance, isotopes, and any food or goods part of supply chains, or that we can't produce.

That is quite simple to understand.

There should have been plan A, B, C and D before the referendum, I hold David Cameron to blame for that.

Don't you think the blame lies with the Leave campaigners who had no plan; just lots of assertions about huge amounts of money for the NHS, instant trade deals, not leaving the Single Market etc etc. There never was a plan for leaving.

Mind you, Cameron should have ensured a supermajority.

And May should have re-run the referendum once she knew that the vote had been affected by foreign money and illegalities.

twitter.com/EUnotCoup/status/1191930270867263489

Fleurpepper

geeljay

He also wants those working from home to go back to work. Perhaps start issuing passports and driving licences. Get Britain working and functioning again! Would even be nice to meet our G Ps again.

What Rees Mogg wants to do, is to abolish the Working Time Directive. That means forcing people, many in very dangerous jobs, or in nursing and doctoring, to work over 48 hrs a week.

You cannot remove this, and many other workers’ rights, if you are a member of the EU. This was a major reason why people like Rees Mogg wanted to leave.

I am especially sorry for people with dangerous jobs like drivers and warehouse workers, and for people - women - with childcare or caring responsibilities, because these things are going to really hit them most. Especially in the government’s charter cities which will basically be run by the Sheriff of Nottingham. If you voted for Brexit, you’ve literally allowed the Tories to reinstate the feudal system.

My DH's grandfather was Sheriff of Nottingham. He'd be turning n his grave right now.

So some businesses which rely largely on an internal market are doing ok, fine, and not because of any advantages of Brexit. If you compare the current state of U.K. growth/ productivity/ the value of the £ - all on a downward slide compared with closest competitors. This cannot be denied. And there is a pharmaceuticals shortage of many medicines. Anecdotal evidence is not data.