Another Benefit of Brexit?

Sorry….didn’t see the link!

When Johnson Senior heard the two criticising Heseltine afterwards, he interrupted them and said something like 'no, he totally wiped the floor with you' ! (words to that effect).

www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/debt_history

Yes Maisie I am well aware of the peaks of public debt in wartime Napoleonic and other wars, WW1 and WW2, as for living in the 1950s or 60s House prices and rents were certainly affordable then.

FIAT system, why don’t you explain how you think it works in a couple of paragraphs without posting links or cribbing other opinions, then we will see where I am wrong.

Fleurpepper

Heseltine was again brilliant yesterday talking to Tice and Oakeshott

youtu.be/6WZ1jsU-BxM

Well done Tarzan, blaming remainers for spoiling Brexit prospect is such rubbish, there have been no remainers at all in the corridors of power for years, they have just had to accept the Brexit policies with no input.

The Remain cause has always been strongly supported by so many honest well informed people who are prepared to tell the truth about the disastrous consequences of brexit.

Michael Hezeltene, in spite of his age, is a good example.

Even Tory ministers are now admitting that brexit has been a disaster

www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/feb/14/rishi-sunak-tory-conservatives-labour-china-latest-politics-news-updates

varian it depends on how you interpret the article. Did you not read the bit about capitalising on new opportunities? Second paragraph.

ronib

varian it depends on how you interpret the article. Did you not read the bit about capitalising on new opportunities? Second paragraph.

The words "capitalising" and "opportunities" do not seem to appear in the article varian linked robib. Which article are you looking at?

Daisy Anne the bit in italics following on from Mel Stride said…. Capitalising on new opportunities etc …

Katie59

www.macrotrends.net/2549/pound-dollar-exchange-rate-historical-chart

For once Maisie we agree this chart shows the decline in Sterling by an average of 2% per year over 50years which coincides with the increase in borrowing as % of GDP. The value of any currency is indeed established by financial markets who analyze each governments competence and economic prospects - (they were not impressed by Brexit and Sterling slumped).

Speculation does affect exchange rates Soros and others are an example, recently there was a lot of speculating during the Brexit debacle and more with the Truss disaster. When the speculators have had their feasting frenzy the real value of the currency returns as it has now.

I’m not interested in economic theories only results, maybe Keynes theories work with productive manufacturing economy, they certainly have not been successful with the service economy the UK has become.
A manufacturing economy pays its labour force who in turn spend their wages, paying tax on some of it (not all) month to month, in addition they have created a product to sell to customers at home and overseas.
A service economy does not have a product to sell other than within the spending of the consumers usual spending. A factory workers spending pattern is the same as service worker, but creates additional value as well.

This is so wrong!

Of course a service economy has products to sell. People are prepared to pay for people to carry out services, such as fixing cars, doing gardening, teaching a new skill or giving medical advice etc etc etc.

The services have a value, just as much as any tangible item has.

We live in an era when most people already have enough manufactured goods. We don't really need many more of them. Providing services for others keeps the economy floating and enables quality of life.

Fixing a car is definitely not the same as producing a car. My OH recently had to buy some various screws. Of the 4 packs, 3 were made in Germany, one in the Netherlands. Why can’t the U.K. manufacture screws? We used to in the past, and it’s a fallacy to suggest we don’t need any more manufactured goods - the building trade needs products all the time and people need washing machines etc. France, Italy and Germany produce such goods, textiles etc , no reason why the U.K. can’t.

Thatcher started the killing off of the manufacturing industry.,

Brexit has furthered that cause. No one is going to invest in manufacturing in the U.K. when 25 miles away there is 500 million more customers without all the bureaucratic hassle.

Of course we need manufactured goods!

From nappies to coffins and everything in between.

I have never claimed that the UK doesn't need more manufactured goods! However, there's a reason we import them. If the "market" were so wonderful, somebody would be producing screws in the UK. Why isn't that somebody doing it? Presumably entrepreneurs don't think it's profitable. If we can import for a better price than something can be manufactured in the UK, that's what we'll do. The reason we import so much from countries such as China is that labour costs are so much lower.

Everybody on GN has access to some kind of electronic device, almost certainly manufactured in China.

Personally, I haven't bought any new electronic device for years. When I did, somebody in China made a very small profit, but so did the people who imported the devices and sold them to me.

The lumps of plastic wouldn't be much good to me, if I didn't have apps installed and didn't have network connections. I dutifully pay my phone and broadband bills and pay for a couple of subscriptions (Microsoft etc), which have cost me more over the last few years than my investment in the lumps of plastic and a few bits of metal. Those are services! They enhance my life more than being the proud owner of a couple of lumps of plastic ever would. The people who turned my lumps of plastic into a phone and computer haven't made money out of me for years, but the people who provide the services make money every month.

Whitewavemark2

Of course we need manufactured goods!

From nappies to coffins and everything in between.

Who said we didn't?

Actually, I'm not sure we do actually need coffins, but the UK can't produce the raw materials to make them anyway.

As for nappies, we need the services to dispose of them safely.

The idea that services have no value is absolute nonsense.

Of course a service economy has products to sell. People are prepared to pay for people to carry out services, such as fixing cars, doing gardening, teaching a new skill or giving medical advice etc etc etc.

Of course services have a value, my point is if services are going round in circles without any additional product to sell there is no gain.

We are manufacturing very little these days, what we do contain many imported components, if we were exporting more, the UK would be much better off. the ONS has reported a trade gap of a staggering £23 billion in December 22 alone no wonder Sunak is being so tough.

Since Thatcher began the abandonment of manufacturing the economy has steadily weakened and sterling has lost more than half its value, does no one else see the link

Whitewavemark2

Thatcher started the killing off of the manufacturing industry.,

Brexit has furthered that cause. No one is going to invest in manufacturing in the U.K. when 25 miles away there is 500 million more customers without all the bureaucratic hassle.

Are you prepared to pay the people who make manufactured goods the same as workers in China, India or Turkey receive?

The fact is that they can often be produced more cheaply in other countries with more natural resources and help keep down the UK cost of living. Britain has traded like this for at least 1000 years (that I know about).

The UK's strength is in services, such as education, science and research, pharamaceuticals and financial services.

It’s not about cheap goods from India but even India has a better tech industry than us, it is about advanced goods we buy from everywhere else, we now have no electronic or computer industry, what car industry is shrinking fast and foreign owned, little renewable industry. Our competitors have expanded manufacture, China, USA, Korea, Korea, Germany, successive government have taken the short term option that services were enough, it hasn’t been.

That why the economy is now in trouble with no change likely for 5 yrs and that’s assuming Ukraine is settled quickly.

growstuff

Whitewavemark2

Thatcher started the killing off of the manufacturing industry.,

Brexit has furthered that cause. No one is going to invest in manufacturing in the U.K. when 25 miles away there is 500 million more customers without all the bureaucratic hassle.

Are you prepared to pay the people who make manufactured goods the same as workers in China, India or Turkey receive?

The fact is that they can often be produced more cheaply in other countries with more natural resources and help keep down the UK cost of living. Britain has traded like this for at least 1000 years (that I know about).

The UK's strength is in services, such as education, science and research, pharamaceuticals and financial services.

Are you suggesting that manufacturing in Europe is done at the level of wages in Turkey, China etc.

Pharmas manufacture big time. But our big local one - Glaxo move much of its production process to the EU after Brexit. It still does have a presence in the U.K. but not at the level previous to Brexit.

The Industrial Revolution was primarily responsible for the type of trade we see now. Prior to that our economy was agrarian.

The UK's strength is in services, such as education, science and research, pharamaceuticals and financial services.

We still need employment opportunities for the rest of the population, or, we need a radical rethink of the structure of society and the meaning of life... Our 'strengths' aren't going to support much of the population.

I also feel rather uncomfortable with the approval of importing cheap consumer goods made by poorly paid unregulated labour. We need a more sustainable approach.

MaizieD

^The UK's strength is in services, such as education, science and research, pharamaceuticals and financial services.^

We still need employment opportunities for the rest of the population, or, we need a radical rethink of the structure of society and the meaning of life... Our 'strengths' aren't going to support much of the population.

I also feel rather uncomfortable with the approval of importing cheap consumer goods made by poorly paid unregulated labour. We need a more sustainable approach.

Certainly we attract a lot of students from overseas to learn English and technology, that supports our own students at university. We have been prominent in science and research but very poor at exploiting any benefits from it, along with financial services much is now moving to EU locations and is highly unlikely to return

UK science and technology is under threat.

The new science minister Michelle Donelan is reluctant to co-operate with the EU Horizon project saying we can "go it alone"

Meanwhile Astro Zenica have announced that their huge new plant will be in Ireland and not, as previously planned, in the NE of England.

I note that there are a number of posts complaining about the lack of manufacturing industries in the UK but my question would be, "how many of you support UK manufacturing?". It is so easy to be critical when not considering buying goods that are manufactured here, TV's, white goods, vacs etc.

It is up to all of us to buy British Made where possible (and there are many goods) and support our british manufacturers and suppliers.

Buying UK-made goods simply because they are made here cannot be the sole guideline. There's no point in spending more than necessary. Nor is there any point in buying an article inferior to one produced elsewhere.

When Keith Joseph returned from a visit to China he brought the message that China was gearing up to become a serious manufacturing nation and that Chinese goods would undercut inefficiently produced, more expensive goods made in Britain. Time has shown that to be true in many sectors.

Thatcher realised that much of British manufacturing industry would be rendered obsolete, hence her focus on service industries which have generated large tax takes. It's arguable that she should have focused too on improving manufacturing and we shall never know how that would have worked out: I'm not much of the view that improvement would have happened - trade union intransigence, incompetent management, lack of technical education and training, lack of investment and adherence to old ways would have been a drag.